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  1. #11
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I think Fe more so than Te? But to put it simply, yes.


    What is "imitated" Fe? I don't personally know of any ESFPs... please enlighten me.
    ESPs adjust themselves to their environment in a sense. Because of Fi, ESFPs are going to driven by their own personal feelings. The on the fly adjustment plus decisions made via Fi makes it look like they're making decisions based on other people's feelings.


  2. #12
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Eh... I do like my social niceties. It's all about maintaining the positive environment.

    Feel free to express negativity, but do it in a controlled and collected manner for the sake of all parties. All that sorta thing~

    Problem comes in with the insincere niceties. Sweeping the problem under the rug (when it really needs to come out), pretending to be nice while backstabbing them. Ergh. This Fi?

    When I'm putting Fe to use. It's merely being accomodating of other people. I don't get the difference between Fi and Fe totally... Sometimes I get the impression that my Fe is influenced largely by Fi.

    Statements like "staying true to yourself" basically destroy all sense of pretending, but can that be an Fe thing?

  3. #13
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I can attest that Si+Fi might look like Fe, if social skills were what they were taught. The way to tell the difference, is that while they will go along with social conventions (and even preach them to you), they will not really believe in what they are valuing, may even complain about the group values behind closed doors, and their decisions (especially when others are not looking) will be based more on logical efficiency. As time goes on, they may give into Fi more, and back away from what they were taught, realizing inner harmony is more important; "Whatever works for [the individual]". Especially when the Ne develops and they see more options for behavior.

    Also, Fi plus the extraverted perception might also seem extraverted, because the perception acts out the values in the outer world (either living it, or conceiving it). Hence, "imitation".
    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    ESPs adjust themselves to their environment in a sense. Because of Fi, ESFPs are going to driven by their own personal feelings. The on the fly adjustment plus decisions made via Fi makes it look like they're making decisions based on other people's feelings.
    Gotcha! Thank you for the explanation from both of you. In other words, to truly know whether it's Fe or Fi, you need to delve into their motivation for their actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Statements like "staying true to yourself" basically destroy all sense of pretending, but can that be an Fe thing?
    If can be both Fe or Fi couldn't it?

    When applied to people in general, staying true to yourself is considered as a virtue (socially accepted). Therefore Fe can be very supportive of other people's dilemmas and will encourage them to do what feels right to them.

    Fi approach is backwards? Because it is unthinkable to not be true to yourself. You generalize to other people and thus will also support them in their ventures.
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  4. #14
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    What helped me understand Fe was the definition "INTERpersonal values". So it's not about "encouraging them to do what feels right to them". It's about maintaining external harmony (for self with others), while Fi is about internal harmony (within self or helping others with theirs). So Fe would be supportive of other people's dilemmas for the interpersonal harmony of doing something for another, while Fi would do the same thing because it's creating inner harmony within the pther person, and it's also the "right thing to do" based on the person's own subjective (or internalized universal) standard.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Gauche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post

    When applied to people in general, staying true to yourself is considered as a virtue (socially accepted). Therefore Fe can be very supportive of other people's dilemmas and will encourage them to do what feels right to them.

    Fi approach is backwards? Because it is unthinkable to not be true to yourself. You generalize to other people and thus will also support them in their ventures.
    Wait a moment. Staying true to yourself is not always considered as socially accepted. Imagine you live in a state with certain ideology; e.g. you live in 1930s Germany. Everyone thinks fascism is great. But you think it's wrong to differentiate people by their race or ethnic. Therefore, you are not socially accepted if you stay true to yourself. This is Fi. In extreme, you don't give a crap about other people, only staying yourself.

    Fe encourages what is socially appropriate (as was taught to be), and stands against what is not socially appropriate. In example above, Fe could pretty well stand right against Fi.

  6. #16
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauche View Post
    Fe encourages what is socially appropriate (as was taught to be), and stands against what is not socially appropriate. In example above, Fe could pretty well stand right against Fi.
    Yeah but give the Fe Ne and Ti and you'll pretty much be likely to only have the empathic social side left instead of the 'social rules' thing.

    The way you're describing it it seems like Si with Fe or a very strong Fe.
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  7. #17
    Senior Member Gauche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yeah but give the Fe Ne and Ti and you'll pretty much be likely to only have the empathic social side left instead of the 'social rules' thing.

    The way you're describing it it seems like Si with Fe or a very strong Fe.
    Yes of course, I was talking especially about Fe on the first or maybe second position. It's understandable that tertiary Fe has only auxiliary meaning, and cannot put more prominent first and second functions into the shade.

  8. #18
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gauche View Post
    Wait a moment. Staying true to yourself is not always considered as socially accepted. Imagine you live in a state with certain ideology; e.g. you live in 1930s Germany. Everyone thinks fascism is great. But you think it's wrong to differentiate people by their race or ethnic. Therefore, you are not socially accepted if you stay true to yourself. This is Fi. In extreme, you don't give a crap about other people, only staying yourself.

    Fe encourages what is socially appropriate (as was taught to be), and stands against what is not socially appropriate. In example above, Fe could pretty well stand right against Fi.
    I love it when people use beautiful examples of Fe like this.

    You cast Fi as the good guy who knows right from wrong regardless of external factors and a Fe user has no value system whatsoever unless it's handed to them. Do you tell who's an FJ and who's not based on how well they adhere to social rules and how well they perform their social roles? Isn't that an incredibly one dimensional way of discerning type?

    The best unloaded definition of Fe I've seen comes from Socionics:
    Fe is responsible for perception of an emotional condition of the person, expression of emotions, management of an emotional condition of people.
    Here's another one:
    Extroverted ethics is generally associated with the ability to recognize and convey (i.e. make others experience) passions, moods, and emotional states, generate excitement, liveliness, and feelings, get emotionally involved in activities and emotionally involve others, recognize and describe emotional interaction between people and groups, and build a sense of community and emotional unity.
    I like those two definitions because they quit harping on that played out social niceties aspect of Fe that everyone has a death grip on and refuse to move beyond. There is thankfully no mention of value systems because you'd be hard pressed to find someone who's values have completely sprung from within without any input from external sources. Yet many people seem to think that FJs don't pick and choose what values they hold or sift through the ones that matter to them the most. If that were the case it seems to me that FJs would be carbon copies of each with the only reason for differences is a changing culture.

    This is why I think people use the social appropriateness barometer of Fe: When you're building a sense of community or encouraging harmony between people you have to use a language (literally and figuratively) that your target group can understand. So yes, there is a conventional feel to Fe because how do you create harmony and unity between people if it's the Tower of Babel? No one can communicate with each other and that only increases frustration and disharmony.

    Fe's a little like this:



    Everyone knows what a genuine smile or frown is meant to convey. I don't believe simply recognizing and understanding what they mean is Fe. I think when you're getting into Fe is when you're actively trying to move people to different emotional states and the ability to discern the different emotional states as they manifest outwardly.

    Some people say this is manipulation but eh. You have to have some language in place for people to monitor and adjust the emotional temperature of others. I just don't see how a society can operate without it. I'm not saying all FJs or Fe users are good at it or use it for good purposes, but it's what their natural inclination is.

    And it's quite possible for other people to mimic this, but I think when you get others mimicking it is when it gets all fouled up.
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  9. #19
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    post of significant length
    What you posted seems to agree with my theory.

    Fe - sense of empathy, expression of emotions
    Fi - internal moral code, recognizing and understanding one's own emotions

    Furthermore, everybody has both functions, to various degrees of strength. Clearly Fi users can express emotions, and Fe users can understand their own emotions.

    And both can lead one to do something "wrong" (keeping in mind right and wrong is subjective). Fe, if the group is wrong, it tries to keep harmony within the group because of the empathic connection. Fi, a bit more direct, if your moral code is wrong, it will enforce that.

    And both can lead to one resisting the group. Fe if it develops an empathic connection to the oppressed (thus in effect making the target group more broad, and trying to maintain harmony within it). Fi if the group's values conflict with internal ones
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  10. #20
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    That's why ESFJs are like walking charm school teachers. They work to preserve the proper methods of social conduct. An ESFJ is interested in how to treat people. An ENFJ, on the other hand, is more interested in seeing potential in people. The Fe is just externalized decision making toward other people. Each type will use it in different ways.

    An IxFJ is more likely to use Fe to meet the needs of their dominant perception, and most likely as a a way of defending their inner world. It's like, if you try to probe into an IxFJ without them liking you, they won't be receptive, but they'll be more apt to be defending themselves against the improper socializing that was directed toward them in a more personal manner.

    FJs are just personal. One thing about FJ's is they take the time to personalize their personal space. They want their work area to have a personal touch to it. I couldn't be bothered that much with that kind of thing. It never strikes me as a priority to make something look presentable or personal. As someone with Te auxiliary, I look for absolute effectiveness.


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