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Thread: Ti con Fi

  1. #1
    Senior Member Ism's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Ti con Fi

    So, out of curiosity, is there anyone here who seems to have a daily fight with Ti and Fi?

    Seriously, I myself relate pretty well to both of those functions, yet they're a bit of the opposite of each other.

    It's been established that they're fairly relatable (authenticity vs. clarity, principle vs. value, etc.), but aimed in different directions, I guess you could say.

    For those of you who do experience it, how much dissonance (I guess you could say) do you experience when these two functions clash and fight with each other?

    Maybe it's not really possible, and the Ti mixed with Fi is just the result of a negative energy that may have been hanging over you for a while/depression, but I'm not certain.

    Comments, questions, experience?

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    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airporte View Post
    So, out of curiosity, is there anyone here who seems to have a daily fight with Ti and Fi?
    Do you have a concrete example of this to share? I'd be interested.
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    Senior Member Ism's Avatar
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    Well, sort of. I'd have to find one of the posts that explained Fi in one respect which was something that I experienced with a few other things.

    I'd have to find it, though, so I'll get back to you.

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    Senior Member Gauche's Avatar
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    And how exactly do you feel that struggle between Ti and Fi?

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I would say I do, and one of the characteristics of that is that some people including experts will insist you're F, along with a lot of internal dissonance. However, the thing that's great about Beebe's archetypes, is that they give you an important clue as to which one you really prefer. It has been described as, "One process is a good and faithful servant; the other process is an unwanted red-headed stepchild, primitive and unsocialized". With me, Ti is the faithful servant, Fi is the stepchild that becomes my "undoing". The reason why I didn't jump on this thread right away, is because I was busy writing a 144KB response to someone on another site from exactly a year ago, who knows how to push your buttons to bring the Fi and Te out. This is then "proof" you prefer those functions, and I had to cool off as well as completely learn the functions and archetypes to finally be able to attack it with logic. Strong demon Fi in it's good side is said to restore balance after a negative thought process involving the other shadows. This I have noticed also.

    Beebe also said that the functions actually develop in the order of 1, 2, 3, 7, 4, 5, 8, 6; with the 7th actually coming right behind the tertiary it shadows, and hence an ENxP in their 30's or later could actually be engaging both introverted judging functions! I imagine that someone on "the other side of the line" who actually prefers Fi, but with a strong Ti, it would most likely play the role of the positive side of either the demon (and hence restore balance) or the Trickster, which is "Comedic".
    So for that role, logical analysis according to internal frameworks or valuing according to an internal ethical standard would be at worse, a "mischievous child", and at best, a clown or comedian. I do not see this for Ti at all. But what I'm really comedic with (including what I tend to use to play tricks on people) are things associated with the [present] senses, such as sight and sound. I wondered how I could enjoy stuff like lights and colors so much (Like all the LED displays in Times Square, Christmas decorations, etc) if Se was so low in my consciousness, and figured Ne (possibilities with those colors) probably had something to do with it. Now, I see it is that plus the comedic side of Se. I used to love red and green together, and would have gone out into the world dressed in those colors if my parents or wife hadn't "opposed" or "immobilized" me, with their Se, respectively! Just like a clown! (Also explains the colorful signature I made, emulating the MyPersonality graphs others use).

    I also see a few other people in the CP test who are close. One person on INTPc had Ti and Fi tied at about 41. (Forgot whether that was Nunki or Etherealsage, or maybe someone else. Both are not wearing INTP now, but whoever it was, was back then).

    This should show that actual strength is different from "preference" order, which is tied to the archetype or psychological role the process plays. So it is possible, though some will insist that if you're using one, you can't use the other (at least not hardly ever), and the tendency has been to slant it in favor of F over T. T's can't use F, nut somehow, so many F's can appear to use T. While it is claimed that many professing NTP's might be NFP, it might actually possibly be the other way around.
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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airporte View Post
    So, out of curiosity, is there anyone here who seems to have a daily fight with Ti and Fi?

    Seriously, I myself relate pretty well to both of those functions, yet they're a bit of the opposite of each other.

    It's been established that they're fairly related (authenticity vs. clarity, principle vs. value, etc.), but aimed in different directions, I guess you could say.
    That seems to be the same idea that's come up in some of the other threads when it has been discussed....

    I have trouble honoring Fi.
    I'm aware of it when it pops up, but I keep trying to step back and impersonally evaluate.

    Sometimes I think I use Ti coupled with N/Fe to create an artificial Fi.
    (i.e., Ti can "derive principles" from life experience and then assign them "personal value" status... but they're still calculated rather than being instinctive.)

    The fact is that I just am not sure what I'm feeling or thinking, or what my values are... only recently (in the last year or so) was I truly able to sit down and make a list of actual personal values that I feel strongly about regardless of their intellectual basis... it took me THAT long (I'm 40) to realize I had them and what they were...

    ... and I keep trying to dissect them, even when I'm trying to give them free rein, and I'll start to make decisions with them and then feel very very uncomfortable. It's usually a fight to base decisions on things I cannot rationally articulate in some way, at least to others... although I've learned to stop judging myself at this point for having those feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricB
    The reason why I didn't jump on this thread right away, is because I was busy writing a 144KB response to someone on another site from exactly a year ago, who knows how to push your buttons to bring the Fi and Te out.
    Aw nuts, you couldn't avoid the temptation to talk to them again, could you?

    Strong demon Fi in it's good side is said to restore balance after a negative thought process involving the other shadows.
    interesting.

    I think how I have experienced it is a sense of Fe being "Mama Jen" who immediately rises up to defend me when others have violated me socially, and I have to figure why I'm upset... where as the Fi is something that restores to me a sense of confidence and faith in myself ... it operates internally, like a vital spring, when I can't seem to come up with any answers and feel completely lost because there's no rational conclusions that can be drawn, telling me what matters.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I had great dissonace, between the two when I was younger, but its gone for good nowadays. I wouldnt call it dissonance, I would say when I was younger I was mainly acting throughout Fi. By that time my Se was very strong too.

    You could picture that as sitting in a train and try to watch out of the windows. You constantly absorb what the world out there has to offer (Se) and than you process it through mixed feelings and a very sensitive soul (Fi). I was pretty gothic that days and was mainly frustrated with the coldness all people seemed to have. I pictured myself to be the last really feeling person on earth.

    Together with my highly Si influenced education, I began to seek refuge in a lot of books and looked for similiar experiences people may have had. I went through it all, starting with Kafka, over Hesse and finally ended with Camus. After that I started writing myself and created a highly introverted subjective world of images and past experiences I have gotten out of my favourite authors. This world was a Si fueled, Fi dominant one. The only problem was, my writting style wasnt rational, it was build on connections, where A leaded to B leaded to C, which made the texts unreadable for others. I call it the Ne reveleation.

    After all that time (and getting really bad book critique) I figured there must be more to it and went on a long journey, which led me from the StarWars type system of "Consulars", "Guardians" and "Thiefs" to C.G.Jung.

    I nowadays since one year or so have become involved in a new thing, which I had missed all my life. Mechanical and electrical engineering as well as physics do give me the platform to find ressonance to my creativity in analyzing systems and identifieing problems. That has brought out the Ti finally and nowadays I have become a pretty cold ass, which wants to make a lots of money, plant a tree, have a family and build a spaceship. The usual things .

    I am wondering when that Fi thingie is getting back to me. But at the moment I am pretty warded. I see most people still as ghouls, as I saw them before and it makes me sad to watch them doing the same mistakes over and over again. But somehow I managed to live with it.

    Maybe I have grown up, I dont know yet
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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Aw nuts, you couldn't avoid the temptation to talk to them again, could you?
    Originally, I wasn't going to. I had tossed around the idea of writing a response just for myself after getting Haas & Hunziker's book, and seeing that with Ti, it might take time to understand things (because information has to pass through the subjective logical filter). What I see was done now, was to define both Ti and Fe in terms of Ni, where you just have a "knowing" of logical principles or group values, through stuff like "inferences" (N language) and then imply one had to quickly "get" things if Ti/Fe was really in your consciousness. Last week; I just suddenly decided to do it, and finished yesterday. The more I realized the above, by the time I finished it, I figured I had to send it.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I had great dissonace, between the two when I was younger, but its gone for good nowadays. I wouldnt call it dissonance, I would say when I was younger I was mainly acting throughout Fi. By that time my Se was very strong too.

    You could picture that as sitting in a train and try to watch out of the windows. You constantly absorb what the world out there has to offer (Se) and than you process it through mixed feelings and a very sensitive soul (Fi). I was pretty gothic that days and was mainly frustrated with the coldness all people seemed to have. I pictured myself to be the last really feeling person on earth.
    I see they're saying that the dominant function does not even begin to develop until you're 6, and the auxiliary until you're 12. I imagine what this means is that they're all weak, and you might actually have more of an awareness of the ones that are to become unpreferred, since the preferred ones haven't developed yet. Interesting!

    From above, I forgot to add:

    I have been so outspoken on many issues (both good, such as interests such as this, or bad, such as many of my critical Christian writings, because I have always felt I had a unique perspective to express things from. Now I can see that this might be from an unusual Thinking/Feeling mix. Most people engaging in controversial subjects such as politics or religion will lean either toward Thinking or Feeling and in one attitude, to the exlusion of the other. Feelers will passionately voice their opinions, but often logic will lack. Thinkers will acknowledge many of the logical points I make, but not be as passionate in enlightening others. Extraverted Thinkers will bear control and organize everything (including even people's thought processes, according to Berens!) according to their cold agendas, such as much of political conservativism, or old-line Christian fundamentalism. Introverted Feelers as you may find in liberalism or moderate and liberal Christianity, will be too much on the opposite extreme; being all "nice", but with no hard logic to counter against the logic tossed their way. Most other introverted Thinkers (who could bring in some much needed underlying principles of things; especially stuff like Bible interpretation or social development) seem to just cynically walk away and ignore all this stuff (especially religion). Extraverted Feelers also seem to ignore most of this stuff, not wanting the conflict. (We see here a division between the two tandems: Te/Fi as more involved, and Ti/Fe as less so). Hence, I see fundamentalists beating up on psychology or contemporary Christian music; deterministic Calvinists beating up on Arminian "free will" doctrine, or politial conservatives beating up on liberalism, even for decades blaming welfare for all our financial woes, while giving the rich more, or tossing around Bell Curve theories, crime statistics and other "empirical" data to justify inequity, and in all such disputes, the aggressive side touting their "hard truths", and then the other side countering only with "feeling"-based responses (which actually feed the other sides' arguments, as this is precisely what they dismiss, with statements as blunt as "This is just the cold reality; stop whining!"). Hence, I offer my mix of introverted and extraverted Thinking and Feeling as (hopefully) a more rounded method of offering solutions.
    Last edited by Eric B; 02-04-2009 at 08:44 PM.
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    I have a very high Fi and also a very high Ti. The way this usually clashes is by me REALLY wanting to do something for myself, or me wanting something to seem better, but then logic speaks up and says "No." It kinda tears me up inside, but I have used my Ti and saved my tail more than once because of it.

    A personal example for this is how I do not do long distance relationships. I have to admit it, I am really aching for some love right now, so anyone who is compatible I will talk with at least. When they are a very long way away (an unrealistic distance to travel to) and I really REALLY like them, my inner emotions will be on fire with me wanting to start something up, but then logic pipes in and I realize (disappointed) that it would never work and I would ultimately get hurt in the end from it. It's never enough though, the logic doesn't put out the fire, it just removes the fire's fuel and it has to burn out on it's own.

    Another non personal example would be money wasting prevention. Sometimes (or most of the time actually) I will feel very depressed. One of the ways to get rid of depression for me is to eat a comfort food. For me, this means americanized chinese food. I LOVE the stuff, especially the buffets. But they are expensive, and I need to save money. Often times my logic will tell me to suck it up and that it was all an illusion. So I generally go with listening to it, and I will feel better in some non-money wasting way.

    I'm not entirely sure this is my inferior thinking speaking to me or my acquired Ti. *shrug*
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    This is a very interesting thread. I'm not sure I have strong Fi, but I do have values that were taught to me, and that I accepted after personal experience, meditation, prayer, etc. I think some of those beliefs tend to act like a makeshift Fi, maybe, though I'm not sure.

    I have values, but I feel the need to run everything past Ti, so that it feels more clear-headed, and feels more like I was in control of my decision. I also feel weird making a judgment that affects others mostly based upon a personal values system...I try to be objective in finding a solution that works the best for everyone, regardless of what I might hold dear.

    I think I have pretty well-developed Ni, though, and I tend to trust that more than any Fi I might have lurking around in there.
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