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  1. #131
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    I find it very easy to tell them apart since INFJs and ISFJs are so different in how they communicate (don't be fooled by just a difference of one letter)

    A lot of ISFJs can tell you exactly what they did today, and often will with a minute by minute description, while most INFJs are too caught up in their headspace with all the opportunities! connections! possibilities! to even remember what they had for breakfast this morning.

    ISFJs normally communicate in a straightforward, empathetic style while INFJs are more random and quirky in communication (which I am trying to reign in, I must learn to listen better to my friends instead of blurting out all the tangents and connections that come into my head)
    ^^ This.

    Si is remarkable in that it can keep track of everything the person is doing. Ni's talent is figuring out how to do things.

    These differences are also useful for distinguishing INTJ and ISTJ. The INTJ sits back and thinks about how to do things, and once having thought enough about it, spends about 1/10 the time doing it as was spent thinking about it. The ISTJ just sits down and starts working on a task, dealing with issues as they come up.

    Si doms tend to classify things by what they are and define words specifically. Ni doms tend to classify things by what they do, and use definitions loosely (but arrange their words precisely!). As an easy-to-understand-but-therefore-unrealistic example, an Ni dom will have no trouble referring to anything with a blade as a "knife", regardless of size or brand or intended purpose, while the Si dom will think of each instance/brand/category of knife as its own thing.

    It can be more difficult to tell between Si and Ni doms when the Si doms are particularly intelligent/educated, because they'll talk about "abstract ideas", and expound on truths and insights that it would seem only an N type would know. In these cases, it takes time to assess, since one has to wait and see if the individual takes abstract idea A and use it to hypothesize about abstract idea B, or perhaps refine abstract idea A. If abstract idea A stays the same over time, it's Si dom.

    Other clues to distinguish Ni doms from Si doms:
    • If they say they find it easy to learn languages, they're an Si dom. (Not all Si doms are good at this, but Ni doms generally suck at it, because it involves too many out-of-context associations of ideas.)
    • If they go on about how brand X is better than brand Y, or about thinking about buying the latest, fanciest outdoor grill, they're Si dom, no matter how technical their reasons. (Ni doms think in terms of purpose, not kinds of things.)
    • If they can regale you with the entire details of their day, they're Si dom.
    • If they say the oddest things, and then you realize it's a pun, they're Ni dom. (In general, Si humor is about breaking Si rules. Ni humor is about breaking Ni rules.)
    • If they appear to stare for hours into space, yet get everything done that they need to do, they're Ni dom.
    • If they always appear to be busy, they're Si dom. (more true for ESxJ than ISxJ, but true nonetheless)
    • If they're geeks who play D&D, they're Ni dom.
    • If they're geeks who play fantasy football, they're Si dom.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #132
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The ISFJ is the one you meet in real life.
    Yup.

  3. #133
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    ISFJ
    1w9 sp/sx Prince Charles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2Cqo1Aksv4
    2w1 so/sp Laura Bush http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAF7rprkg8s
    2w1 so/sx Mother Theresa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yFzCBIK-PY
    3w2 sp/so Pat Robertson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoBdRQVQUzo
    3w2 so/sx Halle Berry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEcIaBGkaO4
    3w2 so/sx Jessica Simpson http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PPMRMDGieEI
    3w4 sp/so David Petraeus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFJX9IaZeaI
    3w4 sp/sx Tiger Woods http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kotQfs6VpXQ
    3w4 so/sp Jimmy Carter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I8XYGxde1I
    6w5 sp/so George Bush Sr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7i0wCFf8g
    6w7 sx/sp Naomi Watts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydpOd8RvGYk
    7w6 so/sx Kim Kardashian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlXODmkEGro
    7w6 so/sx Kirsten Dunst http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0PP7spsmoU
    7w8 sp/sx Bruce Willis http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqMoUYddoF4

    INFJ
    1w9 sp/sx George Harrison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecb1Fc49IDA
    1w9 so/sp Noam Chomsky http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/361
    1w9 so/sx Osama Bin Laden http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R-4GH0PXDc
    1w9 sx/so Imam Khomeini http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AgW_9bijzE
    1w2 sp/so Ron Paul http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCiTykzX3ek
    1w2 sx/so Gandhi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q3xIfoar8g
    4w3 so/sx Cate Blanchett http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJvYyAxpmm4
    4w5 so/sp Marylin Manson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3ue6JLPQLA
    4w5 so/sp Iris Murdoch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-9fsZW_OZI
    5w4 so/sx Simone de Beauvoir http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHVTKy1cmuc
    5w4 sx/sp Tilda Swinton http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-OWANK5lrQ
    5w6 sx/so Leon Trotsky http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m_OXH7n0Rw
    6w5 so/sx Edward Norton http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/1870
    6w5 sx/sp Michelle Pfeiffer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvt_yLUV95U
    6w5 sx/so Adolf Hitler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbF0JQgi7_U
    9w1 sx/sp Carl Jung http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOxlZm2AU4o


    ISFJs are inferior Ne and dominant Si, meaning that they have a hard time to relax and be opened to the quirk and the innovative when they are not secured and stable, but never have a hard time to be stable, concrete, practical and detail oriented.

    INFJs are inferior Se and dominant Ni, meaning that they have a hard time to relax and be opened to the sensual, spontaneous action and adapt to reality and change of situation when it does not fit with their mystic vision, but never have a hard time to be deep, thoughtful, visionary and mystic.

    Also, ISFJs prefer to deal with the detail and the small stuff before considering the big stuff and the big picture, while INFJs prefer to deal with the big stuff and the big picture than to deal with the details and the small stuff.

    ISFJs look for systematism, INFJs look for patterns.

    Beautiful females ISFJs have a rather fashionable and/or casual and a normal and/or bimbo-like style. While beautiful females INFJs have a more weird and/or ethereal style.

    Both want to be helpful. But when they are helpful, ISFJs prefer to have some tangibles and concretes things that they can relate to, INFJs prefer to have an abstract, mystic and powerful vision that they can relate to.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Chaotic Neutral

    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  4. #134
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    lol@ Osama Bin Laden! That's funny.

  5. #135
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post

    Other clues to distinguish Ni doms from Si doms:
    • If they say they find it easy to learn languages, they're an Si dom. (Not all Si doms are good at this, but Ni doms generally suck at it, because it involves too many out-of-context associations of ideas.)
    • If they go on about how brand X is better than brand Y, or about thinking about buying the latest, fanciest outdoor grill, they're Si dom, no matter how technical their reasons. (Ni doms think in terms of purpose, not kinds of things.)
    • If they can regale you with the entire details of their day, they're Si dom.
    • If they say the oddest things, and then you realize it's a pun, they're Ni dom. (In general, Si humor is about breaking Si rules. Ni humor is about breaking Ni rules.)
    • If they appear to stare for hours into space, yet get everything done that they need to do, they're Ni dom.
    • If they always appear to be busy, they're Si dom. (more true for ESxJ than ISxJ, but true nonetheless)
    • If they're geeks who play D&D, they're Ni dom.
    • If they're geeks who play fantasy football, they're Si dom.
    Hmm that makes me an Ni dom then.

    At first I was looking at the Si parts assuming that I am an ISFJ. But then I actually digested all of the points after skimming them a little and the Ni ones are far more relevant.

    Of course that would mean I have to take those points as a set rule...

    I could still easily be ISFJ and I wouldn't mind either way, but those Ni bullet points are very relatable.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #136
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Si doms tend to classify things by what they are and define words specifically. Ni doms tend to classify things by what they do, and use definitions loosely (but arrange their words precisely!). As an easy-to-understand-but-therefore-unrealistic example, an Ni dom will have no trouble referring to anything with a blade as a "knife", regardless of size or brand or intended purpose, while the Si dom will think of each instance/brand/category of knife as its own thing.
    I think this kind of overlaps with Ti, too. Comparing my INTP father and ISFJ grandma, dad is really concerned about using the right knife for the right task and calling it the right thing, because it's right. It's theoretically correct. ISFJ grandma is concerned that you use the right knife for the task because that knife is the apple-cutting knife. It's the one we use for that task - it's about application. My ESFJ mom doesn't really care what you call the knife or what you use to cut the apple for that matter, as long as it gets cut decently well and you don't hurt yourself in the process. The only INTJ I currently know well probably wouldn't bother cutting an apple, he'd just eat it or go to a restaurant. He's kind of an oddball, though.

    It also seems to me that Si also entails a constant sense of practicality, which is easy to mistake for Te at times, because Si is, like you have phrased so well, keeping track of everything the person is doing.

  7. #137
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I think this kind of overlaps with Ti, too. Comparing my INTP father and ISFJ grandma, dad is really concerned about using the right knife for the right task and calling it the right thing, because it's right. It's theoretically correct. ISFJ grandma is concerned that you use the right knife for the task because that knife is the apple-cutting knife. It's the one we use for that task - it's about application. My ESFJ mom doesn't really care what you call the knife or what you use to cut the apple for that matter, as long as it gets cut decently well and you don't hurt yourself in the process. The only INTJ I currently know well probably wouldn't bother cutting an apple, he'd just eat it or go to a restaurant. He's kind of an oddball, though.

    It also seems to me that Si also entails a constant sense of practicality, which is easy to mistake for Te at times, because Si is, like you have phrased so well, keeping track of everything the person is doing.
    This is more an INTP thing than a Ti thing: INTP's tert and inf are Si and Fe. They get rather ISFJ-ish in later life.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #138
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is more an INTP thing than a Ti thing: INTP's tert and inf are Si and Fe. They get rather ISFJ-ish in later life.
    Interesting. ISTP brother does it to some extent - mostly he just calls people stupid for not knowing the right tool to use - but it could be that ISTP brother has been raised by INTP father. It's like the family ITP nerd club.

    INTP father seems mostly to have gotten more IxxJ thus far in my life.

  9. #139
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    enneagram 2 and 6 vs enneagram 4, 5, 9, and 1.

    if context is just one concrete domain, you've got si. if context is all possible domains, brought about by a process of using analogy to blend a variety of contexts, you've got Ni. Ni likes the map about the map, because the meta-map lets us reorganize our search parameters by identifying clear sub-patterns. very alchemical.

    if we are to perform abduction, or to deduce the causes from the effects (a kind of time travel), we've got Ni. in general, Ni is interested in "the conditions of possibility." we work by triangulating contexts until we can get to the imaginary center of things, which must be imaginary because we have invented a new domain for it out of too many seemingly disparate, disconnected levels of description. i liken it to the process of fractalization, of piecing together fractionated contexts into a coherent, quasi-absolute topological field whose relative symmetry organizes how to perceive the meaning of the differences that emerge over time (forward moving, diachronic time).

    also, infjs at the bat tend to hit more foul balls. straight lines are really hard for us. and there's so much more chaos in every aspect of us because we're constantly re-aggregating everything. no meaning to memorize that can ground us and stay fixed, because Ni just doesn't work like that. the waves are too powerful. and time is happening in all directions while we check out to try to reintegrate a sense of absolute, synchronic time to unify the disparate, relativistic contexts. neglecting to keep your eye on the ball.

    more simply, perhaps a quick, other-administered "are you an anime character" test would help disambiguate.

    anyway, both types tend to neglect their own story and have trouble monitoring themselves from the inside over the flow of time. in general, the lack of temporal awareness, of being with the internal, particularizable self along a path of changes is highly underdeveloped which makes us overrely on the predictive aspects of more universalized/cultural meanings and the way those are value-marketed in concrete cultural settings/games. this is the way Fe is ecological. we're a constant barometer for social dynamics that we can't help but identify with because our way of monitoring well-being is marked to compare whether the prescriptive lenses we have inherited and re-potentiated again and again are registering within ranges of health or unhealth. so isfjs tend to try to hold stasis outside of them, because there is a more concrete validity to those meanings that have been assumed so long ago, and the grammar of it all simply is what it is, whereas infjs tend to try to slough their way back to the origin again and again, the whole questing thing, to figure out where the center is in the multiverse, to try to contextualize functional value across disparate populations needing constant reaggregation, to become self-conscious of evolution in process and contribute to a wider-ranging update of the various operating systems that need to be reconfigured.

    the enneagram is like a prism that organizes the qualitative sites and their respective scales through which this kind of deliberative function plays itself out. Ni is the most abstract, but, say, 1 vs 5 is pretty different because e1 is using abstract means to model concrete problems requiring coordinated social action whereas 5 is building an interpreter for the various codes of the cosmos.

  10. #140
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    This is my understanding: there is a rather significant difference between the types because dominant Si has an internalized concept of the physical world, and almost idealized concept to match the outer world. I think quite a few classical musicians are ISFJs because internalizing and recreating a piece of music true to every nuance and detail seems like a strongly Si activity, and then the secondary Fe helps to make the connection with listeners through clear expression. I think the focus on every detail is done with the assumption that accurately recreating the whole will communicate the deeper meaning and structure of the composer even if this cannot be entirely known. When I chat with ISFJs, I find myself very fond of them, but also very far away in terms of cognitive processing. I find them very sensitive to feelings and sensory details.

    INFJs have an internalized, unified concept of reality, always working to extract the core concepts from which to build a system that can account for everything and as NF the focus is more on subjective systems. When an INFJ internalizes a piece of music it has to do with the underlying concept and meaning of the piece and the interrelationships of its structure assuming/hoping that the core understanding will make it possible to recreate the whole without remembering all the details. There are a certain kind of details I find myself remembering, and those are myriads of impressions of other people and their interactions. I also remember a great deal about the underlying meaning in different forms of artistic expressions, but cannot recall opus numbers and dates as easily as I can give a sense of the relationship between the symbolic expression and the culture and composer from which it emerged and how that evolved along with the changes in ideology within a people.

    This is a somewhat specific comparison relying heavily on my own experience, but fwiw, there it is.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

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