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  1. #61
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't have to make my actions appear congenial because most of the time they are. If you weren't so afraid of your own emotions you'd recognize that.

    That may be true. But again..why did you say that you can make people do whatever you want them to do without my 'stupid games'...

    (I am not taking shots at your integrity, I am just saying that I noticed two statements which lead to implications that are difficult to reconcile with one another)

    Moreover, did you intentionally use this phraseology "I dont have to make my ACTIONS appear congenial, they always are"...I am not talking about actions.. I am talking about motives..the actions of the Pharisees were congenial, no doubt they did good deeds, but their motives were rotten..and they could pass their motives off as sincere by making their actions congenial, albeit their motives never were.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #62
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Oh no..please continue..tell me more about how you use your Fe to get from people what you want (I want to learn about this purely on the theoretical level, I am not interested in applying it), and moreover manage to prevent them from seeing that you're using/manipulating them by making your motives appear congenial.

    I'm very much interested in this topic and how ENFs could pull it off so well most of the time that others are still under the delusion that they are being sincere.
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't have to make my actions appear congenial because most of the time they are. If you weren't so afraid of your own emotions you'd recognize that.
    You started with the mistaken premise that ENFs are out to make you do something against your will, mean you harm, or have malevolent intentions. Most of the time that isn't true although I won't say that may not be the case with some ENFs. You also said "appear congenial" as if this was some cloak and dagger espionage going. You're approaching the situation all wrong. If you're looking for bad you will find something. You're already suspicious of ENF intentions and motivations so anything that seems to confirm your worldview (like my statement above) just adds fuel to the fire.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post

    I just meant toy around with their inferior Si..I have an older ENTP friend who is in his 40s and to this day he hates how they made him memorize facts by route in school...then you've got construe their lack of S skills in a way that would undermine their confidence in their competence overall.
    Yeah... though actually my ENFP brother does this better than anyone - undermining my self-confidence, I mean. I don't see him very often, and when I do it's usually when we're forced to work together over some family crisis or other, and then we're just together too much and get on each other's nerves. But he constantly throws doubt on my ability with people - I know that I'm a pretty damn good people person, and I get on well with almost anyone and can be very persuasive and charming. But when he's around it's like, y'know, I just have to move aside and allow the pro to do the job, and he's forever pointing out how I should've said this or whatever... and I suddenly go all INTP and tense, my people skills disappear... it sucks man!!

    I'm actually quite at peace with my Si these days... it's my Fi that's probably even worse than Si nowadays. I can easily get bamboozled on the Feeling plane by people persuading me of what I 'feel', when I've actually no idea.
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  4. #64
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Indeed it will add fuel to my fire, it will make my prejudices more intensely negative, it will obviously influence the way I feel about them. But thats not what I go by when I make decisions, and obviously will not be what I accept as the truth.

    Only what is supported with sound reasoning, to my mind, you should accept as the truth. Not what you feel is right, not your knee-jerk reactions, but only what you can justify with logical argument.

    I dont think that insincerity of motives is very common among ENFs, (as strong feeling types they tend to value their ability to relate to eople on a deeply personal level very highly and are often hurt when others suggest that they are insincere, because their sincerity is perhaps their strongest driving force)

    Though I would say ,however, the few ENFs who lack integrity tend to be very good at manipulating people into doing their bidding..and I certainly would like to learn more about their technique..or in other words..how the ENF mechanism works in such situations..that is a purely theoretical inquiry and purports to make no statement about ENFs in general or even less about this or that specific ENF individual or group.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #65
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah... though actually my ENFP brother does this better than anyone - undermining my self-confidence, I mean. I don't see him very often, and when I do it's usually when we're forced to work together over some family crisis or other, and then we're just together too much and get on each other's nerves. But he constantly throws doubt on my ability with people - I know that I'm a pretty damn good people person, and I get on well with almost anyone and can be very persuasive and charming. But when he's around it's like, y'know, I just have to move aside and allow the pro to do the job, and he's forever pointing out how I should've said this or whatever... and I suddenly go all INTP and tense, my people skills disappear... it sucks man!!

    I'm actually quite at peace with my Si these days... it's my Fi that's probably even worse than Si nowadays. I can easily get bamboozled on the Feeling plane by people persuading me of what I 'feel', when I've actually no idea.

    I wouldnt even worry about that. Sensing and Feeling arent your natural strengths so it would be wise to accept your lack of competence in those areas..I know its probably something that I should do as well..but I just cant because the dominant T demand for competence is too strong...

    Perhaps you're more troubled by F problems than S problems because your F is stronger than your S and hence if you have a choice between an S environment and F environment, you'd go for the latter, but again, more than likely bite off more than you could chew because you've overestimated your competence as most NTs tend to..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #66
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    I wouldnt even worry about that. Sensing and Feeling arent your natural strengths so it would be wise to accept your lack of competence in those areas..
    Yeah I know... I don't have any trouble accepting the things I'm just predisposed to be crap at, but what bugs me is when there's something I KNOW I'm usually good at, but all of a sudden the skill has deserted me because someone has managed to evapourate the confidence that's necessary for me to actually use them!
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  7. #67
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah I know... I don't have any trouble accepting the things I'm just predisposed to be crap at, but what bugs me is when there's something I KNOW I'm usually good at, but all of a sudden the skill has deserted me because someone has managed to evapourate the confidence that's necessary for me to actually use them!
    I think this probably suggest that you lack confidence in your ability to handle that skill well. Otherwise such a minor disturbance wouldnt suffice to turn your whole performance upside down.

    Dont be thinking it only goes one way..imagine how NFs ought to feel after they've done much study and convinced themselves that they are great at handling abstract concepts..and suddenly..wham..an NTP heads their way and they start questioning themselves again more than ever...

    This is why Fs tend to have lower confidence in themselves than Ts--because in life you're confronted with more situations where you'd be forced to make impersonal judgments (T), rather than personal (F), albeit Ts suffer the same losses that Fs do in everyday life when they have no choice but to make decisions in their non-preferred way.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  8. #68
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I have something to say about this. I carefully read the discussion between BlueWing and Brendan, and it seems to me like they were having a calm discussion about this topic, and were not mudslinging or anything.

    However, proteanmix, I would note that your first comment on this topic questioned whether or not it was valid, and that when you interjected to stop whatever it was that bothered you, you cursed (I also note that neither of the people you accused cursed at all). If anything, I would say that your comments were more antagonistic and hateful than BlueWing's or anyone else's. He did make some rather cutting remarks your way after this, but I believe that you provoked them.

    Also, I don't believe BlueWing had any intention of using these things to actually agonize (or antagonize) someone. I think he was simply trying to evaluate how types can be undone by their inferior and/or shadow functions in a very roundabout way, so that it could be evaluated outside of the normal perspective, revealing things we would normally miss looking at it in that way.

    cafe, yes, her being a moderator makes a disagreement her business. But I don't believe that BlueWing did anything wrong. I also know it's not my place to say such a thing, and I'm willing to accept judgment for what I believe in this case.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    I think this probably suggest that you lack confidence in your ability to handle that skill well. Otherwise such a minor disturbance wouldnt suffice to turn your whole performance upside down.
    Yeah exactly... well, no I did spend the majority of my life without any skills in that area and I've developed them over recent years, but I've had enough honest feedback to know that I've done a good job of it, and I'm constantly called a 'people person'. It's happened when I've tried to empathise with people who complain about lack of people skills, that they've scoffed at me and said "Huh, as if YOU would know how it feels to be crap with people!" and they just don't believe me when I say how bad I used to be, and how hard it's been to learn what I have.

    I think it's because my brother interacts with me as the person I was when he last knew me properly, when we last used to spend time together outside of emergency situations. Perhaps with Ne as my dominant, I naturally flex and adapt to the person I'm interacting with, and the history between him and me, you know, like when he talks to me as a certain person, somehow it makes me become that person again. I'm sorta onto him though now, and he's not doing it as much. I think the solution is for us to get to know each other again now, as we are, though it's hard because we both bring out sides of ourselves that are, to all intents and purposes, historic! So it's hard for us to see each other as we normally are in the present.
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  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    How she feels about it does not have any weight. It can only be construed as her business if he can show how it violates forum policy.
    Just a small nuance, here, BW. I'm not sure if technically you are breaking forum policy (although I'm sure if we worked, we could find SOMETHING that would stick to you when it got thrown at you).

    But let me take a bit of a different tactic, because I see it as relevant. This is not a juvenile hall, and your motivation is not supposed to be, "What can I get away with?" We're adults, aren't we? With a shared goal of having a pleasant, decent forum?

    So, if you look at what you and Brendan are doing and can acknowledge the extent to which you have taken it as being disruptive to the thread and potentially to the bulk of posters, I would think that both of you (if you were productive members of MBTIc) could simply say, "OKay, fun was fun; this is being disruptive now and pissing off many people; and so I think I'll just stop."

    We mods shouldn't HAVE to be trying to punish you, to get you to consider other people besides yourself. Mature adults are usually working together to build a positive environment, not being forced to comply just to prevent things from going downhill.

    Seriously, think about that a bit. Personally, your little tiffs with Brendan do not bother me a ton, but I think the attitude shift from "What can I get away with?" to "What can I do that is productive here?" would benefit everyone.

    UGGHHH. Now, I do have to admit: Having to waste five minutes to spell all that out was AGONIZING. I guess your title was apropos after all!

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I have something to say about this. I carefully read the discussion between BlueWing and Brendan, and it seems to me like they were having a calm discussion about this topic, and were not mudslinging or anything.
    Oh, they actually were mostly screwing around, tongue-in-cheek. How do I know that? Because I have watched them fight before, on INTPc mostly, and when they were serious, it was FAR uglier than this, and just like watching a 50-car-pileup at a train crossing in a hailstorm during a meteor strike.

    But let me tell you, we have three children, and two of them fight like this (bickering back and forth) incessantly, and after days and weeks and months of hearing from them, it almost doesn't matter whether they are kidding or NOT when they start squabbling -- it just pisses us off royally almost as soon as it starts. This is not really a choice, we only get to choose how to respond. But really, it wears your tolerance very very VERY thin once you have been exposed to that sort of irritation long-term.

    And this is rather why some people seem on a short fuse with BW and Brendan. You wouldn't know, as you haven't know them that long. So that was just a little history lesson.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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