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  1. #31
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Someone else watching might say something like "well, he should not stoop down to their level" by fighting back, or whatever, and assume that his inner harmony is more important that gaining outer harmony. (I could never see how people think like that).
    Well, I believe that's actually a control issue. Who's going to control me? I'm going to control me, since I'm the only one who has to account for my actions.
    And then it comes down to where do you decide to take your stand? If I decide I am more concerned about being the boss of you, then I would fight back. But I'm not concerned about being anyone else's boss and I don't care if anybody thinks you're bossing or getting the better of me. I'm only concerned about passing my own tests. So if I am living up to my best self or my ideal, I don't fight back because I have decided to be merciful and kind no matter what you choose to do. If you are mean to me, I don't have to be mean back. All that proves is that I can be as mean as you are. Why would I want to prove that? It doesn't seem like much of an accomplishment. I can just avoid you. I can walk away.

    I fail all the time, but that's the logic of the choice.

  2. #32
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Well, I guess fighting back is so that you would not become a doormat that everytone knows they can pick on.

    But I was really viewing it from the perspective of the onlookers, and the comparison of Fe to Fi.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  3. #33
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'll make some vague guesses here...

    Both Fi and Fe appear to work off hints and clues for seeing feeling in others. And it seems like they look for hints and clues that remind themselves of themselves. So, Fe's out to see small actions that demonstrate people depending on each other while Fi's out to see the passion behind the project.

    It seems to me too that both Fe and Fi value harmony, Fe external and Fi internal. Fe will become unsettled in situations where people are in conflict. Fi will become unsettled at such times too, but, perhaps, and now I just making things up, but Fi might in principle allow conflict in those cases where it stems from inner passions. The resolution of the conflict will be whatever finds internal harmonies for all involved, and that I guess will include expressing or at least recognising inner convictions. Fe, in principle, might not go so far. I dunno. Fe resolution is a recapitulation of everyone's interdependence?

    But it does seem to me that in the cause of conflict resolution and harmony maintenance, Fe can and will privilege external signs of harmony over internal resolutions. And likewise, Fi can and will dig its heels in and offer to upset the applecart again and again if the inner conviction is not addressed.

    The inner conviction powered by Fi need not be totally about the user himself. (For an INTJ it probably is, but for an ENFP...?) It might be a conviction about the rightness and wrongness of what people are doing to other people's insides.

    Fe convictions?






    ...come after prolonged court battles including horrifying stories of demonic possession and why Father wanted all group members to carry a pistol if they had children.

  4. #34
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'll make some vague guesses here...

    Both Fi and Fe appear to work off hints and clues for seeing feeling in others. And it seems like they look for hints and clues that remind themselves of themselves. [...]
    *sighs to self once again over inaccurate use of language*

    Fi/e users work off hints and clues.

    And saying "hints and clues" that "remind themselves of themselves" makes it all sound a very N process.

    S people probably also use hints and clues too, but--and am I stereotyping here?--not stuff that needs to be guessed, but more likely "recognised as (traditionally?) appropriate"?

  5. #35
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    bitching about Fe seems silly to me when it is done to elevate Fi. judging functions do what they do, no one is entirely happy with the results.

    Fi values/feelings hang like a raincloud over the room. we get tired of watching you mope and spin your tires and sigh sigh sigh (you're doing it out loud). who hasn't gotten the judging sideways glance of Fi when overstepping one of their invisible tripwires. you don't have to cooperate, but then stay out of the way, just go home. why do i want to spend time with someone who would rather sulk than make things work well for everyone? if it's the wrong decision, or if we are the wrong deciderers, find something or someone else.

    i do these things too. i am more likely to opt out than to try to convert anyone to my ideas and beliefs and vision of how things should be. (i may have stronger Fi for an infj than i realize. maybe it's just an introverted quality, and we can just blame the extroverts!). often times it may feel all wrong, oh so wrong, and i'll just feel it and hate it.

    attempts to control, to express, to fit in, etc, they're relevant for all of us. agency is a question that is muddled even more than authenticity. Fi is not more pure than Fe. it does what it does to get something done for a purpose, and pretending otherwise is absurd.

    ----------

    i feel like Fi has a larger space for RESPONSE than Fe. it stores its memories and assigns feeling-tones to all objects. their abstractions are based on the built-in feeling-tones that come attached with whatever object they pull up into their attention.

    Fe just buzzes with whatever frequencies are around it. knowing it will eventually replicate itself in you. magnetized. it tries to maintain its own healthy happy environment internally by fixing the situation in others, directing the situation, etc.

    i am trying to understand right now if EXTROVERTED JUDGING is really a more viable way of understanding or situating these functions. j types are extroverted judgers. which is directing. Fe is more about directing. Te is more about directing. it is connecting and moving forward, evolving, changing, etc. ACTION. p types are extroverted perceiving, they grow their judging functions, they store Fi or Ti associations, articles, abstracts, etc into all objects, relying on categorizing and prioritizing to be better equipped in the future to respond in a quicker way. developing their habits so that they can feel confident and comfortable with their internal organization/virtual environment to respond quickly and efficiently and handle themselves.

    Fe is a process of articulating and expressing and READING feelings. it relies on other tools of information gathering, perceiving tools like Ni or Se, and it gets additional judging power from Ti. absence of expressed feeling is seen as a negative by users of Fe, just like absence of THOUGHT is seen as a negative by T people (god, could you be any more vapid and illogical????).

  6. #36
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Fi all the way.

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