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  1. #11
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    I think TP's are the real Fe-structure-destroyers. Neither Te or Fe by itself can know of the presence of Fi without some help of repressed Fi respectively hardwiring with Ti. Ni can understand the motives, but doesnt take any Fi into consideration because it cant fully comprehend it. Although Ni is good at faking true understanding of Fi, it just relates it to... relateable things.

    Also, in my observations. Fi tends to only want to see positive Fe emotions. Negative Fe emotions reveals a repressed Ti, where only positive Fe emotions keeps the harmony at top because there is almost no thinking at all. The same way as Ti don't want to see a happy Te (for example an ENTJ that is happy that his plan worked out reveals that he had an emotional agenda behind it).

    And well, yeah. Fe needs to see feelings in others. Without seeing feeling in others, the Fe-users feels dead within itself and no way to manuever around in the enviroment, nothing to improve or move forwards to. Thus, this makes the Ti the opposite.

  2. #12
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Lorkan, buddy, I'm gonna post the skreed below anyway, but I like what you just wrote. Also don't like it. Are Fi and Fe doomed to looked at each other over the fence and see nothing but the back of the other guy's house? (Fe's having a barbecue and Fi's inside watching sports.)


    But anyway, one wheel reinvention coming right up...

    (skipping down to the last paragraphs is a wise choice.)


    A feeling is an affective state. (It expresses an emotion. "I am sad, so I feel upset, angry, disappoint with myself, etc.) or something like that. In any case, a feeling is an affective state. And value judgements are abstractions.

    Feeling is rational inasmuch as it is an affective state--it provides motive and reason--, and though the relationship between things and feelings and between feelings and feelings is subtle and complex, at a suitable level it'll be consistent. (I guess. For if feeling wasn't consistent at a very basic level, there'd be no personality.)

    And feeling is always about something. Always. If there isn't an object (of some kind), there isn't a feeling. You may not always know what the feeling is about, but it always has to be about something.

    And you can have feelings about feelings, so you can have value systems. "I feel that it's good to feel good about hair product," and so on. "I feel bad if people feel happy hurting other people, so it's bad to hurt people." Etc.

    In other words, the user gets to make systematic (though perhaps evolving) judgments of "positive" and "negative" on... stuff.

    Right(ish)?


    Now, where does feeling come from? Who knows. But what is feeling about? Well,--partial answer--it seems to be that there are two broad brands of focus for feeling: outward and inward. What gets called Fe and Fi.

    Fi is, perhaps, broadly, feeling about the self. (Necessarily there is some relationship to the outside world, but the feeling has as its object parts or all of the self.)

    Fe is, perhaps, broadly, feeling about the outside world. (Necessarily there is some relationship to the self, but the feeling has as its object parts or all of the outside world.)


    And a brief point of order: no one has the feelings of other people, so no one really ever sees anything other than the products of other people's affective states--tears, laughter, angry petting, bitter stares, vociferous outbursts... and so on. (And though there is empathy, it isn't the same as having another person's feelings--instead empathy is being so clearly aware of the meaning of another persons expressions that a similar but distinct feeling arises inside the watcher...)


    So-o-o-o...

    I'd prefer to say:

    Fi - feeling responses to internal/idealized standard
    Fe - feeling responses to tangible or applicable stuff

    In fact, I'd really prefer to say:

    Fi - (eventually systematically recognisable) feeling responses to internal states
    Fe - (eventually systematically recognisable) feeling responses to conditions and expressions in and of other people.

    [I wonder if I'm not really wrong in that characterisation of Fi... internal states, or value systems? Dunno.]


    So what system is eventually recognised? People come up with their own systems, right? These are systems of (subjective) value. Aka, "value systems."

    Even if broadly "e" or "i", is it going to be essentially random what F picks out to respond to? Dunno. It is subjective. But maybe some of it at least is predictable.

    It seems like Fi depends on (responds to?) other parts of the psyche/personality/consciousness working well or badly. It seems that Fe depends on (responds to?) other people working well or badly.


    So-o-ho-ho-ho...

    In what way is Fe likely to respond to Fi?

    Did I just go through all that to come back to the conclusion Fe will mature into a complex system capable of distinguishing and reacting appropriately to both Fe and Fi?

    But where Fi exists, there's going to be a lot of times where it is NOT expressed primarily via an Fe system. (In fact, never expressed as Fe?) An INTJ for example when backed into a corner will hunker down and spew forth intense monotone Te, the Fi being translated into commands and denunciation and demonstration with footnotes--words, primarily. To look at, he'd likely be hunched, unblinking, difficult to hear and aggressive...

    What can an Fe system recognise of that?

    Will a mature Fe system recognise something different?

    It must, musn't it? Or must it?


    For that matter, what does Fi recognise of Fe? An intrusion on the ownership of internal states?

  3. #13
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    Fe doesnt really have a valuesystem (controversal-warning). It's really just based on the here and now and might differ. It's the Ni respectively Si that makes Fe act passionately and SEEM consistent. Fe can't see others feelings and it's a defined attitude one have, "you're suppose to smile...". It's not a value, just a way to make it stay sane.

    I think feeling is thought-in-motion, ones thoughts becomes internalized into the body and it makes you have "control" over logic and facts. You are the leader of logic instead of a slave to logic as a TJ&TP is. Thought for TP&TJ is like a carrot outside themselves (detached) and the bodies are the bunny that follows.
    Fe can't develope itself to understand Fi without developed Ti. There is a high thought process going on in a Fe-person trying to know the presence of Fi.
    Fe responds with confusion and frustration to Fi. Fe's response to Te is probably anger from the lack of Te's untruthfulness ("why do you tell your emotions as defined logic when it really just serve

  4. #14
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    s yor own inner core values).

  5. #15
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    both are equally important... comparing is pointless
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  6. #16

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    Fe: OMG how are people gonna look at me!?!!?!
    Fi: *cry* how would I look at myself??!?

  7. #17
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Fe is soft and fuzzy in SiFes. <3

    Really, I find Fe too abstract to be described by external characteristics. It almost feels like an electricity flowing through myself and the other person. One thing I'm sure of: it depends on a reciprocation between two forces.

    Fi on the other hand is more independent, and I find those types with Fi are much more pleased by the ability to be "left alone" rather than someone ragging on their emotions. Sometimes this makes them very fun to poke at , because they're like WAAAH LEAVE ME ALONE GRUMBLE.

  8. #18
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Hegemonaical bastards!

    Fe needs small gestures in other persons--the little tiny hints and clues that the other person needs you too. I strongly suspect that "harmony" under an Fe regime is at least "witnessable interdependence."

    Fi... what? Wants to get it's own act together?

    Or maybe that's Fi in an INTJ talking. As far as I can tell I characteristically show NONE of the things Fe wants to see. It has in the past alienated INTPs, ESFJs, and made INFJs harsh and ENFJs tense.


    So anyway, there are important practical differences between the functions.

    What brings us together?

    How, say, is an ENFJ executive going to deal with an INTJ working on the same project? Or perhaps the other way around, if the INTJ somehow attained a management position and is overlord to a team of ENTPs, ENFJs, INTPs and perhaps by accident, a handful of ISFJs?

    Or, MBTI forbid, if they got married...

  9. #19
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    People adapt... besides just because you're an INTJ doesn't mean you never use Fe nor ENFJ never use Fi.

    Fi delivers respect for others as self deserves respect.
    Fe follows nicety and social rules.
    Is it necessary to understand something completely in order to accept its existence? No. All that requires is understanding that there are differences and be tolerant of them. Such is found in every well-adjusted individual. I don't see why this is such a big deal...
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  10. #20
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    It's not a big deal if the relationship doesn't require any particular depth of self-expression.

    But for me, the closer I've come to Fe users, particularly E/INFJs the more I've been aware of "the wall". That'll be the Te-Fe divide, but it seems to me that I get pissed off a lot, so Fi's getting in there somewhere.

    (And there's an INTP I know too and neither he nor I have ever been comfortable around each other, rather prickly in fact for so little actual time spent talking..)

    But there's other things too, like I've become aware of NFJs making decisions about me based not on what I say but on some other mysterious thing that doesn't seem to be under my control, but I know it has something to do with their feeling not getting something it needs. So, Fe's in the mix too.

    And it seems to me, being pissed off on either side is the serious issue, the one either should pay attention to. (Or is that my Fi say "Respect, dammit!"?)

    So I could get by with NFJs if I ignored my inner qualms about faking niceness, and they could get by with me if they ignored their deep reservations about the cold, distant thing standing in front of them?

    Answer: probably yes if the relationship didn't call for anything much more than work related competency. (Oh my God, did I just say an ENFJ would allow low level relationships to be sub-par?)

    But up closer...? Being real friends, or lovers or... I dunno, carpoolers?


    Looking back through my history, I just do seem to attract NFJs. And they're much more into settling stuff than the NFPs I know so they get more air time, I guess.

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