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  1. #1
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Default When is it type?

    I've noticed how often people evaluate others' problems, likes/dislikes, relationship patterns, careers, and other issues in terms of MBTI. How much can we say is type related and how much is other factors? Is this the same thing as nature vs. nurture?

    I personally would like to use type as one of the last factors that can influence someone's behavior. Things like sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, education level, ethnicity, location, and upbringing are more salient and reasonable places to start looking before moving in to type. Do people think we should look at those factors first and then branch out to type or does type influence stretch beyond some of those factors?

    I do believe there are valid instances when type should be examined and used as a likely explanation for behavior. But what are those instances? For example are entertainment tastes or career choices type-dependent?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
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  2. #2
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Stop trying to apply MBTI to real life. Its not what its about, its about the way our unconscious mind works, and nothing more.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #3
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Then why do you have INTP in your profile? You must consciously identify with some aspect of MBTI and you exist (as far as I know).
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #4
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I've noticed how often people evaluate others' problems, likes/dislikes, relationship patterns, careers, and other issues in terms of MBTI. How much can we say is type related and how much is other factors? Is this the same thing as nature vs. nurture?

    I personally would like to use type as one of the last factors that can influence someone's behavior. Things like sex, race, religion, sexual orientation, education level, ethnicity, location, and upbringing are more salient and reasonable places to start looking before moving in to type. Do people think we should look at those factors first and then branch out to type or does type influence stretch beyond some of those factors?

    I do believe there are valid instances when type should be examined and used as a likely explanation for behavior. But what are those instances? For example are entertainment tastes or career choices type-dependent?
    Technically, and the way I approach it, type only says as much about a situation as the correlations show. For example, it is clear that certain types prefer certain jobs - so as far as certain statements go (like Ts and Js being more dominant the higher up the food chain you go) can be readily verified and applied. The mistake that I see being made is the reverse - saying that INTJs should be leaders rather than Leaders are often INTJs. Same would go with nurses and ISFJs, to use another very dominated situation.

    Using other factors, except for IQ and certain custom formulas, are not as effective, making personality factors one of the dominant traits as far as job stratification goes.


    In short, if it cannot be showed that it has a significant correlation relative to other factors, either adjusted for other factors or not (^1), then type has no business being involved - and in general, any factor that matches that shouldn't be involved. In general, most situations that involve preference of action will involve personality types to a significant degree. However, in more defined sex roles/etc, those factors determine behaviour and preferences as well. In a way, personality is used as a "people are people" starting point, which then get wrapped into religion, sex, ethnic grouping, upbringing.

    --

    ^1 - For example, in a society that didn't allow women in the workforce or there is a significant glass ceiling, sex would be quite dominant. However, that could be controlled for.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Stop trying to apply MBTI to real life. Its not what its about, its about the way our unconscious mind works, and nothing more.
    Yah, I agree. It's a useless intellectual excersize that doesn't have a foundation in anything demonstratable or any relevance to any real life situation. That's why it exists in philosophy rather than selling itself to the corporate sector.

  5. #5
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yah, I agree. It's a useless intellectual excersize that doesn't have a foundation in anything demonstratable or any relevance to any real life situation. That's why it exists in philosophy rather than selling itself to the corporate sector.
    So why are we on this forum? Why do we talk about it? Why do we find certain profiles more appealing than others? Why are people selling it like a brand?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #6
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So why are we on this forum? Why do we talk about it? Why do we find certain profiles more appealing than others? Why are people selling it like a brand?
    That was sarcasm, for the record...

  7. #7
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #8
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Stop trying to apply MBTI to real life. Its not what its about, its about the way our unconscious mind works, and nothing more.
    This is a perfect example of Ti (BlueWing) reacting to Fe (proteanmix). BlueWing (INTP) attempted to defend against proteanmix (ENFJ)'s perceived attempt to subjugate an internal system to externally defined rules (values), because BlueWing wants to do the opposite, subjugate an external reality to internal rules (system). BlueWing unconsciously values the integrity of that internal system, against an external reality. proteanmix only cares about the meaning of that system in terms of how to make an externally defined reality/system impact her internal reality. They're both using the same process and looking at the same part of reality, but in reverse with reversed priorities.

    This may be more about introversion and extraversion, but I think it's especially relevent in the context I mentioned above.

    The MBTI is most useful for explaining unconscious processes, but those unconscious processes can help explain interpersonal reactions to a degree, though not precisely because an abstraction cannot fully express the complexities of reality.

    Does that make any sense?

  9. #9
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    My first answer was legitimate. Type can be used either at the personal level, which isn't what you were asking (to help understand oneself)... or it can be applied where it has been shown to be a factor.

  10. #10
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    This is a perfect example of Ti (BlueWing) reacting to Fe (proteanmix). BlueWing (INTP) attempted to defend against proteanmix (ENFJ)'s perceived attempt to subjugate an internal system to externally defined rules (values), because BlueWing wants to do the opposite, subjugate an external reality to internal rules (system). BlueWing unconsciously values the integrity of that internal system, against an external reality. proteanmix only cares about the meaning of that system in terms of how to make an externally defined reality/system impact her internal reality. They're both using the same process and looking at the same part of reality, but in reverse with reversed priorities.
    Can you explain what are the external values/rules and internal values/rules are in this situation?

    Wouldn't my value on the externals be a conscious projection of my unconscious? Doesn't that bring us right back to the beginning, hence my consciously expressed type?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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