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  1. #51
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    It's not a regular thing. More an occasional one. But if you don't do it at all, you might be an S, or not quite get what it equates to.

    It would be quite unusual for an INFJ to be non-sensotarded. Because to do it you would need to constantly focus on just the details and ignore the intuition and feeling; almost annul the INFJness. Your mind should have better places to wander than perfecting detail and existence in the here and now.
    I think there's a distinction between 'perfecting detail and existance in the here and now' and being observant of ones immediate environment. The sensotardation you speak of is more of a lack of Se, and I think I have pretty high Se. It doesn't mean I don't also space out and drift through my thoughts most of the time, but drifting through thoughts and being aware of surroundings and physical sensations are two things that don't have to be mutually exclusive. I also think the two things use different parts of the brain, so you can almost do it simultaneously...to an extent.

    That's all I'm trying to say. :-) Just not sure it's the best way from an observational/behavioral standpoint to type someone as N/S. But yes, if you knew someone for a long time, it might be more reliable.
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  2. #52
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    No, it cannot be wrong - it's MBTI that doesn't make any sense in respect to functional ordering. I don't think we can refer to "socionics" or "mbti", it's simply generally wrong to say that ISTJs and ISFJs have a dominant perceiving function - they're J types! The best theories are those that are most parsimonious while still adhering to reality; MBTI has to introduce an ad-hoc hypothesis of introverts switching functions that, if they got their ordering correct, wouldn't be necessary at all.
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  3. #53
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    It's not a regular thing. More an occasional one. But if you don't do it at all, you might be an S, or not quite get what it equates to.
    Really? I figured most people experience it now and then. It hasn't happened to me in a while, I guess, but yesterday I almost put my socks in the garbage and a food wrapper in the laundry. The kind of thing Ni people are used to, I'm sure. It may be low Se, or it may just be that it happens much more often for Intuitives. I wouldn't know personally.

    If you believe the concept of Introverted Perceivers (strong Ni or Si, as the topic of this thread), I'd guess they could both zone out quite a bit, since their perceiving isn't external (and more obvious to the external world). Less with Si, because it takes physical observations (sensing), but it does it internally, not as much externally.

    This is why it's fuzzy, and giving the OP (Wanderlust) some trouble, I think.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #54
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Uh..comment wasn't directed at you at all! I was just speaking generally. But thanks for reminding me to chill. Cause, you know, I was getting pretty worked up about it. ;-)
    I take it you read my post before I realized you had gotten your post in before mine, and I added the quote of Uberfuhrer, who I was actually responding to.
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  5. #55
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Yup. Thanks for the clarification.
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  6. #56
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    I think there's a distinction between 'perfecting detail and existance in the here and now' and being observant of ones immediate environment. The sensotardation you speak of is more of a lack of Se, and I think I have pretty high Se. It doesn't mean I don't also space out and drift through my thoughts most of the time, but drifting through thoughts and being aware of surroundings and physical sensations are two things that don't have to be mutually exclusive. I also think the two things use different parts of the brain, so you can almost do it simultaneously...to an extent.

    That's all I'm trying to say. :-) Just not sure it's the best way from an observational/behavioral standpoint to type someone as N/S. But yes, if you knew someone for a long time, it might be more reliable.
    I completely agree. My eSTJ father regularly can't find his keys or glasses, doesn't know where his pants are, and puts the dishwashing liquid in the refrigerator. Could be the early stages of dementia or he could be an N. Using these types of things as indicators of N-ness and S-ness are reliable only until a certain extent.

    Thank ptgatsby who regularly pounds it into to people's heads that when people are comparing sensate traits and intuitive traits they tend to be comparing the extremes of either set of people. Those of us who are in the middle don't strongly identify with either groups. When I talk to sensors about these so called "sensotard" moments they're like "Oh, I do that too!!" It's so easy to get a small group of people together, find the common trait they have and incorrectly extrapolate. If you're going to find a pattern make sure it a pattern that's based on solid footing.

    Si in ISJs: The only thing I can say to describe this is the process of percolation. When I encounter ISJs, especially older ones, I see things seeping through them like ground water. Things are getting filtered and strained. When my ISTJ deputy director talks, she processes so slowly. In younger ISJs (through their early 30s) you see this percolation process but the reservoir isn't as deep yet. But it's cool to watch because it's being refined and things are still getting incorporated.

    Si in ESJs: If you don't have a freaking axe to grind against ExSJs you'll find them to be very reasonable people. Their Si does do that whole percolation process but not so obviously. Processing is faster, reasons are more supportable, and more easily swayed than ISJs. ESJ-Si seems more miscible than ISJ-Si. I mostly hang around young ESJs and they're extremely current and modern but in a fixed way. ETSJs are dauntless and ESFJs are spunky. The modernity of now will morph into the future status quo so if you want to have influence over what will be I'd say get at ESJ when they're young and nubile.

    I want to say that I've always found an insightfulness that stems from Si that differs from Ni. It's more or less the assuredness that this has happened before, we got through it and we'll get through it again. Maybe that's the calmness people are referring to? Weathering the storm? Actually what I think best exemplifies Si is this. A very strong sense of timing and when things happened and how they're supposed to happen.

    Ni in INJs: Healthy, balanced, non-crackpot Ni (but what other kind is there?) in INJs is a keenness and sharpness. The same way I get percolation from ISJs, I get laser from INJs. It's like they'll say one thing and I'm like damn, that so explains what's going on! Since I have more experience with INFJs than INTJs, I agree that they're pretty hard to identify if they're not the closed off type of INFJ. ladypinkington is the closest approximation I can find on the forum. The INFJs I know look like extroverts and they really are everybody's therapist. I guess I would be the therapist's therapist. I think their insightfulness is what attracts people to them. The INTJs I deal with aren't asshats so I actually like them.

    Ni in ENJs: Closet seditionists and insurrectionists. ENJs strongly know how to play the part but when shit needs to change they'll drop that lamb suit in a second. When I meet someone who seems like an ESJ but not quite then I think ENJ. The "not quiteness" is the prime indicator. It took me over a year to identify two ENFJs and an a ENTJ at my job and one ENFJs I work with directly! She just constantly had a question mark over her head. Meshes very well with everyone, but the blending was too good almost like it was done on purpose. ESFJs don't mesh because they do it on purpose, they do it because it's what is done and they're what you have to mesh in to. I have a girlcrush on the ENTJ so she can do no wrong in my eyes. Professionally you feel like things are moving forward and will get done and she's open to suggestion. Personally, she's very chill and relaxed (well as relaxed as one J thinks another J is ). I don't see the fixedness in ENJs that I typically get from ESJs although I do see that crazy ass Ni glinting through their eyes.
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  7. #57
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    I've compared my Si to "percolating" before when talking to friends; used that exact word. (without referring to "Si")
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Really? I figured most people experience it now and then. It hasn't happened to me in a while, I guess, but yesterday I almost put my socks in the garbage and a food wrapper in the laundry. The kind of thing Ni people are used to, I'm sure. It may be low Se, or it may just be that it happens much more often for Intuitives. I wouldn't know personally.

    If you believe the concept of Introverted Perceivers (strong Ni or Si, as the topic of this thread), I'd guess they could both zone out quite a bit, since their perceiving isn't external (and more obvious to the external world). Less with Si, because it takes physical observations (sensing), but it does it internally, not as much externally.

    This is why it's fuzzy, and giving the OP (Wanderlust) some trouble, I think.
    Yeh, actually I've known Si people who do similar to what you said. I was going by the Se people I knew, because they don't miss much ever. But it probably doesn't carrier over to Si types.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    I think there's a distinction between 'perfecting detail and existance in the here and now' and being observant of ones immediate environment. The sensotardation you speak of is more of a lack of Se, and I think I have pretty high Se. It doesn't mean I don't also space out and drift through my thoughts most of the time, but drifting through thoughts and being aware of surroundings and physical sensations are two things that don't have to be mutually exclusive. I also think the two things use different parts of the brain, so you can almost do it simultaneously...to an extent.

    That's all I'm trying to say. :-) Just not sure it's the best way from an observational/behavioral standpoint to type someone as N/S. But yes, if you knew someone for a long time, it might be more reliable.
    Yeh, you're probably right. I generalised a bit much...
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Oh no, not this again...
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  10. #60
    Junior Member Copyleft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    No, it cannot be wrong - it's MBTI that doesn't make any sense in respect to functional ordering. I don't think we can refer to "socionics" or "mbti", it's simply generally wrong to say that ISTJs and ISFJs have a dominant perceiving function - they're J types! The best theories are those that are most parsimonious while still adhering to reality; MBTI has to introduce an ad-hoc hypothesis of introverts switching functions that, if they got their ordering correct, wouldn't be necessary at all.

    The logic of MBTI is based around the idea that introverted types utilize their secondary extroverted function to interact with the external world, and therefore tire out easier when engaged with it (which differentiates them from the extroverts). Since the extroverted function is used for interacting, the introverted types appear to the world/interact with the world through their primary extroverted function (Te for INTJs). Thus, introverted J types have rational functions as their secondary functions rather than their primary, and appear as rational despite an irrational (more comfortable) primary function.

    It actually makes quite a bit of sense, imo.

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