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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    The first step to understanding the problem correctly and easily is to see that Si types are not the SJ's in general, but ISTP ISFP ESTJ ESFJ (thus changing the S/N axis gives the correspondent intuitive group - INTP INFP ENTJ ENFJ). Then you will notice how all of them prefer to relate descriptions of physical(if ISTP or ESTJ) or emotional(if ISFP or ESFJ) phenomena to systems (cause-effect systems) that are "direct" and "immediately observable". Ni types instead relate physical (if INTP or ENTJ) and emotional (if INFP or ENFJ) phenomena to systems that are "symbolic" or "abstract". If it's an example that you need, I will give you one of ENTJ and ESTJ.

    First, where an ESTJ strategy is successful and an ENTJ strategy is not:
    ESTJ: "My tooth is aching because I have eaten sugary food"
    ENTJ: "My tooth is aching because of the conjugate action of a quantity of self-replicating bacteria interacting with each other"
    Then, where an ENTJ strategy is successful and an ESTJ is not:
    ESTJ: "The stock market went up because they decided to bail out GM"
    ENTJ: "The stock market went up because of the systematic expectations of the agents on the behavior of their neighboring agents, which is in line with what was predicted by the diffusion model"
    Your first step is wrong

  2. #32
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I think Frank may be referring to Socionics... but didn't use proper notation.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I think Frank may be referring to Socionics... but didn't use proper notation.
    Ah. its possible thats what FDG was referring to.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    Si is rules you live by, Ni is the voices in your head telling you what to do.
    Wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I think Frank may be referring to Socionics... but didn't use proper notation.
    And really, I don't understand why more people don't. It makes it far easier to understand Jung's ideas. Modern MBTI just muddles them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Why melancholy? Why longing?
    Ni is the quintessential dreamer. And a melancholy look is often present in their eyes. Si, by contrast, often look calm and passive.

  5. #35
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Ni is the quintessential dreamer.
    But longing and melancholy mean no motion. Where are the dreams that inspire action? Does a 'quintessential dreamer' not have those?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #36
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The way I explained it once was it was a bit like quick digestion before, or slow digestion after... like Si is the snake and Ni the spider.
    Hmm, that comparison might work...
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  7. #37
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    But longing and melancholy mean no motion. Where are the dreams that inspire action? Does a 'quintessential dreamer' not have those?
    Not without Fe and Te. Those are what inspire action, in either Ni or Si types.

    Ni would simply dream without acting on it, getting lost in itself... Si would simply be passive and complacent. I assume.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    But longing and melancholy mean no motion. Where are the dreams that inspire action? Does a 'quintessential dreamer' not have those?
    By melancholy, I meant sad, dreamy look in the eyes, I wasn't talking about temperament.

    Pure Ni by itself just muses upon fantasies, independent of direct sensory stimuli.

  9. #39
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Ni is the quintessential dreamer. And a melancholy look is often present in their eyes.
    I doubt this applies to how normal INJs use Ni, but rather to how Ni would behave by itself if it had no other function to work with. Thus, your definition is purely hypothetical and useless from the practical standpoint of assessing type.

    It makes sense from a purely functional model oriented standpoint, but it tells us nothing about how Ni is used or applied by NJs.

  10. #40
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    Your first step is wrong
    No, it cannot be wrong - it's MBTI that doesn't make any sense in respect to functional ordering. I don't think we can refer to "socionics" or "mbti", it's simply generally wrong to say that ISTJs and ISFJs have a dominant perceiving function - they're J types! The best theories are those that are most parsimonious while still adhering to reality; MBTI has to introduce an ad-hoc hypothesis of introverts switching functions that, if they got their ordering correct, wouldn't be necessary at all.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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