User Tag List

First 12

Results 11 to 16 of 16

  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Lol, prom... welcome back, two years is a long time to chew on a post!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    When I read what Wildcat posted, something clicked, and I remembered something I had thought of while reading Jung's work. What do you think of this:

    Te and Fi both consider the existance of a thing in itself to be a truth, and subjugate expression to existance. Te sees things that actually exist in an external reality, data. Fi sees things that actually exist in an internal reality, emotions. They create rules, but only based on their observations of what exists.

    Fe and Ti both consider rules aspects of reality, and subjugate reality and expression to rules. Ti tries to use rules to define/predict internally what exists (or should exist) in external reality, data. Fe tries to use rules to define/predict externally what exists (or should exist) in internal reality, emotions.

    Therefore, Te and Fi are in fact the same process engaged in reverse, as are Fe and Ti. This is why you always see those processes together in the inital four functions.

    This means that people with Te and Fi are focused on describing what's there as an assumed truth, and people with Ti and Fe attempt to define what should be there using rules and principles. Does this make any sense so far?

    Now, you may think I've mistaken Te and Fi for perceiving functions, but I haven't. Their function is still to evaluate things in terms of rules, they just base these rules on what they actually perceive within their respective forms of reality, rather than seeing rules an independant entities to which one can subjugate reality as Ti and Fe do. So, Te/Fi subject their rules to reality, and Ti/Fe subject their reality to rules.

    The perceptions themselves, however, are separate, and simply feed the above processes.

    Se and Ni both deal with reality as it happens, believe it or not. Se simply appears to look outwardly at reality as it happens, and unconsciously is reacting to an abstract model of it created by the senses and mind, believing it to be reality. In other words, Ni works unconsicously, creating a representation of reality. Because we only preceive things in our minds, through our senses, we cannot see reality, only a representation of it. Whoever said, "We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are" was quite correct.

    Ni is a bit different. It focuses on the creation of the abstaction itself, aware that it is only creating a representation of reality. With the awareness of your mind constructing this abstraction, you have to consciously focus on creating it. But with this awareness, you aren't limited to representations of reality. You can take an awareness of any given thing, and represent it internally. Se works unconsciously, feeding data from the senses with which you consciously try to create the abstractions. In other words, Se percieves the "reality", Ni perceives the internal construction of the "reality".

    Si and Ne both actually try to fit reality into patterns. Si simply appears to compare the reality that exists to reality that has previously been experienced. But truthfully, it is actually comparing the abstraction just unconsciously created to represent "reality" with a previous set of abstractions that it believed did the same. Ne works unconsciously, perceiving obvious patterns via which to compare previous abstractions with the new one, and the overlapping and most common trends in these result in "standards" by which reality is judged, as well as memories of how one situation was, based on how it differed from another.

    Ne is different, again. It focuses on the process of seeking the patterns in the data itself, aware that it seeks patterns and not previous experiences. However, with the awareness that the patterns are being sought, it can look for patterns in several ways, rather than simply through previous experiences and information. It can proactively see patterns between things that are around it, things it has experenced before, and things that it has envisioned. It constantly tries to create new patterns and new associations. Si works unconsciously, holding up previous memories and associations from which patterns can be detected. Without an awareness of previous data, there would nothing from which to deduce patterns.

    So, to recap, this means there are four two-sided functions:

    Ti/Fe -- Creates rules by which to subjugate reality.
    Fi/Te -- Creates rules which are determined by reality.
    Se/Ni -- Deals with the experience and construction of our reality.
    Si/Ne -- Deals with the comparison of reality to other things
    .
    This latter part is the concept I was trying to develop here, by deriving names for the tandems. http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...dem-names.html

    It did not seem to make sense to anyone, so I'm still thinking if there are better names. What I had was:

    Ti/Fe -- maintains forms of harmony (internal, logical or external values)
    Fi/Te -- maintains "systems" (Te builds them and Fi provides the "importance" or personal support for them)
    Se/Ni -- See things as they are, and what they lad to
    Si/Ne -- sees around things (either the past, or multiple present possibilities)

    The way I see it now, there are realy four functions that can be used in an either inner or outer orientation, and when you choose one function, the other is rejected, and when you choose one orientation to use a function in, the other orientation is rejected for its use.

    So the tandems are formed by accepting one j/p function in one attitude, and rejecting the other function and attitude. The rejected attitude is used for the auxiliary, but that function is rejected from the dominant orientation. Likewise, the opposite orientation is rejected for the dominant function. So what are really "the same process engaged in reverse" are the function with the attuitude reversed. It's the same function, used in the opposite orientation.
    Ne and Fi are the "shadows" of the INFJ's dominant and auxiliary, meaning that those two are rejected from consciousness, however they do "back up" the leading functions in a way, and hence might come out strongly. Ti and Se might seem unconscious, because the primary orientations were initially rejected by the ego, and Si and Te are actually the left-brain alternatives, and hence, might seem more conscious than the tertiary and inferior.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas
    Likes Punderstorm liked this post

  3. #13
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post

    Ti/Fe -- Creates rules by which to subjugate reality.
    Fi/Te -- Creates rules which are determined by reality.
    This really speaks to my experience as someone with Fi/Te and my mild frustration at times with Ti/Fe users.

    I'm like, this is the way it should be done because this is what reality is. I see this as being pragmatic and sensible.

    And they're like, no no but I think reality should be this so you have to do it this way that I'm telling you. I see this as being nit-picky and overly idealistic.

    I guess mainly I'm referring to annoyance with Ti/Fe in positions of authority.

    It's all so clear to me now...and for so long I just thought is was a P/J divide.
    Likes Punderstorm liked this post

  4. #14
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This really speaks to my experience as someone with Fi/Te and my mild frustration at times with Ti/Fe users.

    I'm like, this is the way it should be done because this is what reality is. I see this as being pragmatic and sensible.

    And they're like, no no but I think reality should be this so you have to do it this way that I'm telling you. I see this as being nit-picky and overly idealistic.

    I guess mainly I'm referring to annoyance with Ti/Fe in positions of authority.

    It's all so clear to me now...and for so long I just thought is was a P/J divide.
    Yeah, that's it exactly. You really get it.

    The thing is, though, is that if you base things on how they are rather than how they should be... the effects will be positive at first, but there will be a slow decay in order and purpose that comes from ignoring the ideals in practice for too long.

    Basically, if you don't do anything to push things back towards where they should be, they'll keep sliding until the situation gets ugly.

    I can see how it would be annoying to someone who just wants to get things done, but I assure you there's a point. It's more to keep things on track than to actually achieve the ideal.

    Does that make sense?

  5. #15
    Member Prometheus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    43

    Default

    I was writing a thesis and I discovered that I could write, and enjoy writing, so long as I thought about it as "reading in reverse". I soon discovered that drawing too could be seen as "watching in reverse", and that I could draw well. This morning I spent the day thinking about things and their reverses when I remembered this post. @ words appear to have hypnotized me. Please forgive me for resurrecting this post, for a second time. So yes, most definitely (Ni,Se), (Ne,Si), (Fi, Te), (Ti, Fe) are pairs of reverses. And most certainly being strong in one makes you potentially strong in the other. The tricky thing is to stop seeing it as an activity in itself instead of a change of order. The difference is that Ni, Ne, Fi, Ti are questions and Se, Si, Te, Fe are affirmations. So an INFJ could appear to be an Se dominant by stop making questions and start giving answers, she would find all that question making has made her very good at answering (as long as she doesn't answer with another question). The reverse would happen to an ESFP if she stopped answering questions and started asking them, she would find that all the work done to quickly find the right answer has made her great at asking the right questions.

  6. #16
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    548 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    3,442

    Default

    I had forgotten all about this, but there has since been a proposal of tandem concept names, from a more "official" source: Finally: Official tandem group names!

    And no, they should not be seen as "activities", but rather the division of reality into opposites (both function and attitude). If your consciousness separates out one function, and an associated attitude, then the opposites of both "collect" somewhere lower in consciousness, and hence work in "tandem" with it in the background (and moreso than the opposite function with the same attitude or vice versa, which end up as totally in the "shadow" of consciousness).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

Similar Threads

  1. Inspired by another user - what's MY stacking?
    By Melodrama in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-12-2017, 08:52 AM
  2. Video: Dario and His Dancing Lab Rats -- an interview by Type Insights
    By highlander in forum Typology Videos and RSS Feeds
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-12-2014, 06:48 AM
  3. Video: Introducing Dario by Type Insights
    By highlander in forum Typology Videos and RSS Feeds
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-21-2014, 07:39 PM
  4. [NT] This is inspired by the 'Is this genetic" thread
    By ReflecTcelfeR in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-19-2010, 08:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO