The elusive INFJ

[wildcat]

After reading more information on INFJs, I'm convinced that people are mistyped as INFJs very, very often. Many mistypings are actually ISFJs, and some are ISFPs. Some may even be ISTJs because of their clear-cut sense of right and wrong, and possibly some INTJs for those who are focused on intellectual pursuits.

From readings on this and the INTP forums, everyone and their dog seems to have an INFJ ex and that is pretty unlikely imo. I can see how a person would assume an introverted feeler who is structured or inflexible is an INFJ, but that is not accurate. Their primary function is Ni, which is not women's intuition, but an extremely abstract approach to life. It is a rare type, very private, one of the most conceptual of all the types, etc. There are many introverted feelers who need a great deal of private time, have complex emotions, and a deep sense of altruism. These people are not necessarily INFJs. Most of the quicky tests don't really give reliable results. The INFJ profile on some such sites even uses the word psychic to describe them. That right there will draw in all the introverts who want (or worse think they have) super powers. INFJs are less than 1% of the population and withdrawn, complex, extremely abstract... it's somewhat unlikely the average person will get to know one well, let alone date one. Thoughts? This has just been my impression which could well be flawed.

INFJ

INFJ Profile

Field Dependence.

This is what disturbs.
The ENFJs are not field dependent. To say nothing of the other Ns.

The MBTI does not employ the L scale.

 

[faith]

...I find a way to externalise the language of inner expression...the only problem is no one understands what I'm saying. All they know is that I'm trying to say something. It makes me feel like I'm retarded when that happens.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Gosh, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Have any of you ever wished you had some touch of telepathy, so that you could send the raw thought material to someone directly?

Again: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

It's very meaningful to read how these posts resonate beyond their words.

That drive to communicate what is so intangible i think is what has motivated me as a composer. Even there i work towards a goal with the full knowledge i will fall short. Still, the process of getting closer and closer is a strong motivator. The arts are a useful tool for this because rather that using arbitrary symbols, like words, that mean something quite different to each person, the arts attempt to recreate experience. It possesses the abstract and intangible elements in more concrete terms. When someone else can enter the experience of the work you have created, that is a rare moment in which the isolation is warmed. Physical intimacy, for all its simplicity also eases this ache.

Possibly for the reasons mentioned above and other circumstances, i have mostly resigned myself to a sense of isolation. There is a continual background ache of separation and loss, a persistent nostalgia, a feeling of never enough. I think that is what draws me to the stars and the ocean. Vastness provides a sense of embrace. I realize I am engulfed in something greater than that which eludes my internal grasp.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Here's another discrepancy between myself and what people impose on me and infj's in general:

People will talk about infj's being 'judgmental', and yet my brain is hardwired to resist this sort of thinking that is being imposed by that assumption. It isn't a value or a moral, it is simply that my brain does not allow me to draw conclusions about people. The best i can do is hypothesize, or draw up various percentages of likelihoods for various scenarios and explanations of their behavior. I have occasionally jumped in earnestly with people when i see a likely outcome of hurt that the other person does not appear to see. Still, in such scenarios i cannot determine motivation absolutely. On one level it isn't even relevant, just the behavior at hand. That is the closest to judgment i can come. I have also run away from people who hurt me in the past, but that is ironically enough, because i know i will reexamine and remain open to not judging them, and therefore am at greater risk of future hurt. I run away sometimes because i 'can't' judge conclusively.

It has to do with having respect for the depth of complexities of a person. Looking at a person is like looking at an ocean. You can feel a certain intensity of the waves, see surface patterns that repeat in somewhat predictable, however subtlety nuanced, ways. You get a general feeling about the person that can't be put into words. There isn't a certain category of anything that they are, they just 'are'.

I watch arguments between people online or irl and jump between the participants in my mind, first seeing one angle then the other. It is somewhat disorienting and tiring, but something i am driven to do. It's automatic. It also makes it difficult to argue, because either during or after the conflict, i will experience through their eyes best as my information and perceptions will allow. There are certain debates in which the other person 'wants' to hear the dissenting voice. It is fairly easy for me to get a feel for these and i will participate because it is an extension of my own internal debate. Also, it is a good feeling to connect with someone in this way. It is a unique form of intimacy.

 

[faith]

I watch arguments between people online or irl and jump between the participants in my mind, first seeing one angle then the other. It is somewhat disorienting and tiring, but something i am driven to do. It's automatic. It also makes it difficult to argue, because either during or after the conflict, i will experience through their eyes best as my information and perceptions will allow. There are certain debates in which the other person 'wants' to hear the dissenting voice. It is fairly easy for me to get a feel for these and i will participate because it is an extension of my own internal debate. Also, it is a good feeling to connect with someone in this way. It is a unique form of intimacy.

I quoted the above portion because I have a similar propensity to see things through other people's eyes, and thus not be able to debate very well (unless, as you say, they obviously want me to disagree and debate).

I'm not sure I experience it the same way you do, but the world to me seems very full of possibilities. Sometimes it's difficult for me to see which "what if" is more possible than the others, so I don't feel I can come to an absolutely certain decision. The Ts I know are much better at this than I. I think I often lack perspective as to which possibility is more likely.

For me, the "judging" part reveals itself in the fact that I like to be prepared for things. I don't like to fly by the seat of my pants. I want to know in advance. I want to read a book about how to do something rather than try to figure it out as I go. If I tell you I will or won't do something, then that's the end of the matter and you may be certain of what I said--and I expect the same thing from others.

 

[meanlittlechimp]

Do any of you notice any visible differences between male and female INFJ behavior or tendencies?

 

[cafe]

Do any of you notice any visible differences between male and female INFJ behavior or tendencies?

This is just an observation from my online interactions, and it's just a generalization, but male INFJs strike me as being more J than many of the female INFJs I've encountered.

 

[InFlux]

I'm just responding to the last page, here, and I'll admit that first.

Toonia and faith are far better people than I - I admit openly to a judgmental streak, which I don't like about myself. I know that other people are complex, but I tend to first jump to a judgment, and then get mad at myself for doing it. Later, I'll sit around thinking about that judgment, thinking about their pasts and what might have led to my judgment, and try to amend it. Toonia's ocean analogy resonated, but I never get to that step until after I've judged; that happens later when I'm alone. Still, that doesn't make it go away. I'd love to learn how to bypass that first step!

But I do always forgive them, and keep going back, thinking, oh, they aren't SO bad. And then I judge again, forgive again, go back. It's a nasty cycle.

And I do see everyone's point of view in an argument, and if it's dispassionate, that's useful. But if it's emotionally charged, or I have a reason to argue, I can ignore that knowledge in favor of my irrational belief that I'm totally right.

So perhaps I am not an INFJ. I am open to the possibility, especially as I really didn't like the "psychic" nonsense in the profiles. But then, maybe it's all natural variation.....

 

[cafe]

I am just not getting the "INFJs are so emotional" thing. I keep the vast majority of my emotions private. Going around showing them all the time would, to me, be the equivalent of going around in public naked. The thought makes me shudder.

 

[Kyrielle]

I am just not getting the "INFJs are so emotional" thing. I keep the vast majority of my emotions private. Going around showing them all the time would, to me, be the equivalent of going around in public naked. The thought makes me shudder.

Or going around in public with a giant bull's eye painted on your body as you walk naked and scream "Please hurt me!"

I guess other people are speaking of our enthusiasm when they say that.

 

[cafe]

Or going around in public with a giant bull's eye painted on your body as you walk naked and scream "Please hurt me!"

Heh. That too.

I guess other people are speaking of our enthusiasm when they say that.

I guess. I always thought people considered me a pretty cold fish irl.

 

[tovlo]

Hmm...Could ramble for quite some time, but I'm going to try to restrain myself.

I'm new to this forum really, and also new to interaction with other INFJ's. There was much to resonate with. However, since this thread is just about mis-typing INFJ's, I'll try to remain focused.

In the online MBTI circle I've been part of there has been discussion of mistyped INFJ's, but it has centered more on true INFJ's being mistyped as INFP. Part of the reasoning for why a true INFJ's might mistype as INFP is the IJ issue. The J/P dichotomy is a reflection of whether a type's perceiving function or their judging function is extraverted. In an introverted J type the extraverted function is their auxiliary function. So it is not the core function to their personality. IJ types are really at their core perceivers, unlike an EJ type who would both extravert their judging function and have it as the dominant function of their personality. In addition, it is argued most J descriptions in J vs P choices seem to lay out Te qualities rather than Fe qualities. So someone who extraverts their feeling function would not relate as strongly to a J question that drew heavily on Te qualities.

I have to admit to agreeing with much of this argument.

I am also in the opposite situation than that described here of originally not really wanting to be INFJ. I scored midline INFP/J right from the beginning and I admit that my prejudice was toward INFP. It was a bit of a grieving process for me to accept that I was in fact INFJ. I now see the beauty of my type, and following from that myself, but mine was not a situation where I typed INFJ because I aspired to be one.

Since typing INFJ I have received a few comments questioning my type because people describe experiencing my presentation as "softer" than that of what they believe to be the typical INFJ. I do not know what their typical experience with INFJ's is so perhaps they are among those who have been interacting with people they believed INFJ, but really were not? I don't know. However, when questioned, I am most likely to be placed back as INFP or alternately ISFJ. I had explored the INFP/J issue so thoroughly that I feel fairly comfortable which side of that line I fall on. I did entertain the ISFJ possibility a bit, but each time I explore, it is the Si vs Ni that returns me to INFJ. Si is not a function that describes my experience of the world well at all. The main thing I relate to in ISFJ descriptions is a desire to serve and please others. But I don't believe that is an alien desire to an INFJ either.

Anyway, I'm enjoying very much reading the thoughts and experiences of other INFJ's and am glad to be here.

 

[the_snumeister]

Hullo, n00b here. I like like like this thread so it can have my forum virginity. =]

I believe I'm an INFJ and I don't need personality test results to confirm a (recent actually!) discovery of THE defining "A-HA moment" of my self-concept so far. The symbolism I now see in those four letters.. impacted me like synchronicity. I subsequently read a whole heap of profiles and could not identify myself with any other type at all. INFP was close in some aspects, but just not the true me.

Heck, there will always be sceptics 'cause how would I go about proving it? I guess if someone were to be all like 'yeah right', I'd like to see you try to get to know me. Although my best friend/platonic soul mate undoubtedly knows a lot, I always feel she doesn't know enough. No one does and that's a real struggle for me, no matter how satisfying it can be.
Other than that, my proclaimed integrity itself is the mystery. Sorry but I have no key; I am it. :S

 

[xNFJiminy]

I see them as much of a T as the other T's when it comes to decision making or unbiased assessment of a situation. What makes them F is their desires and motivations, not their execution or analysis.

Thank you, it is very refreshing to see this noticed and pointed out! I don't know how many others think this accurate, but it's spot on for me. I went through a stage of thinking I was INTJ because of the way F is defined, but in the F/T deciders on tests (which I think have a highly imperfect, almost coincidental association with the official definitions but are more valid) I relate much more strongly to the F and the kind of people who score as Fs.

I'm very much aware of how I feel all the time. Even if neutral, I wonder why, and am by now skilled at manipulating my mind back into a joyous state. While I enjoy subjects like science with little or no connection to subjective experience, people or relationships, about 97% of my 'free dream' time, and 100% of my writing hobby is focused on those things. Character is much more important to me than plot, with the exception of those in short vague fables and extended social analogies like 'The Ones Who Walked Away'; I guess due to Ni. The only person I know with as much time and patience for social outcasts as I have is (or appears) ENFJ.

Yet the idea of ever acting on feelings that I know conflict with logic is completely foreign. I consistently feel like doing whatever I reason is right. Whenever I've reasoned that a former opinion was illogical or ill-informed, my feelings naturally change in accordance. If it's such a heavily socially conditioned feeling that this transition is slow, I have faith enough in the logical structure of morality that I'll go with the new line of thought while waiting.

As an example, I believe patriotism and many forms of supposed loyalty are just society's ways of disguising immorality and making selfishness and open egotism more emotionally palatable. That's un-Fe on more than one level, but if I don't want to be merely the sum of my instinctual parts, it doesn't bother me to throw out some unwanted evolutionary baggage. Other aspects of my Fe are no weaker or less valued for it.

 

[TenebrousReflection]

For a long time I was fairly certain that I was either an INFJ or an INTJ, but that was only based off the Keirsey sorter and other on-line tests. Only recently have I begun to see that INFP (or possibly INTP) seems more probable for me.

In my desire to understand others, I find it frustrating that so many people seem to be mistyped. If I judge someone at face value on what type they say they are, I could easily be getting a false impression and treating them as they "say" they want to be treated even if the real self for them is someone else that would want different things but not admit or know it. It seems discourteous to me to questions someones decision about their type, but if I don't then I don't know if they actually put any effort into it (reading multiple type descriptions and trying to understand the synergy of the letter type system) or if they simply took one (or even a bunch with how inaccurate they are) test, read the description they liked and said "ya, thats me". If I have genuine concern for someone and my interactions with them, I feel an obligation to make my own observations of them over time and come to a type (or at least one of the 4 temperament types) conclusion of my own for them.

At least for my own benefit, I've found it helpful to contemplate the cognitive processes and try to see which ones I either do automatically or with little effort and which ones are either difficult for me to understand and/or practice.

I reached the conclusion that either Fi or Ni is my dominant function, and that I also have some aptitude with Ne (even though I still struggle to differentiate it from Ni and don't think I use it quite as often, but maybe more automatically/subconsciously) but my Fi seems to directly conflict with Fe values.

Up until my teens, I was fairly socially complacent and was content with "moral/social values" and tried to live my life in accordance with them thinking it was the right thing to do. Eventually I reached a point where I found myself being torn between "what I thought was right" and "what society says is right" and reached the conclusion that I have to do what feels right to me. If the values of society match then great, but if they don't then they loose their value to me and as I understand it, this seems like a pretty clear defining point between Fi (personal values) and Fe (values of society). Granted, this may be an issue that does not come up often, but I spent enough time struggling with the decision that its one that means a lot to me and was a sort of crossroads in my self-perceived development that influenced who I became after that. From that point on I made the decision to listen to and trust my heart and when I stray from that and trust either logic or society, thats when I have my regrets and have to answer to my conscience, but when I follow my heart, even if the results get me in trouble, its very rare for me to feel any guilt from it because I know I did what I thought was right. I don't really have a quantified value system, I just evaluate each situation as it comes along against whether it "feels right" to me or not (I think that would be Fi working with Ne and Si (all syntonic traits of INFP)). My primary concern is for the feelings of others (and my own). What matters to me is what impact my words or actions will have on another person and their feelings. Fe will also be concerned with the feeling of others, but they will be equally or more concerned with the impact of their actions on social values/impact. The Fe may appear to be more caring tho, because they will be motivated to extrovert their feelings whereas the Fi will be content to internalize their feelings and let them be the basis for their decisions. (at least if my understanding of the cognitive processes is correct).

Even though all signs seem to point to me being INFP, these are still a few things I'm having a hard time reconciling with that.

I do feel a "need for progress", that is to say when I have a goal I need to feel like I'm getting closer to it over time. Thats supposed to be an INFJ trait, whereas INFPs supposedly are more relaxed and not as concerned with results as they are with the process of how one gets there. There are times where I don't have any goals and in those times, I do match the relaxed just see what happens approach.

INFPs supposedly love brainstorming, but if I try to do in consciously or I'm in a work environment where I'm supposed to to it on demand, I find it an uncomfortable experience and usually just have a blank mind. Now ideas can and will pop into my head seemingly at random, but trying to focus on it just doesn't work well for me.

From what little I've observed here so far, I feel like I relate better to the words and perspectives of those self identifying as INTP than INFP or anyone else (but I haven't jumped into the type specific boards yet either, and it may just be that INTPs are more active posters). (but I strongly relate to the values of NF whereas the NT stuff I only partly see in myself)

I could probably find a few toher inconsitancies if I tried, but those are the ones that stand out and give me the most doubts.

 

[Athenian200]

TenebreousReflection: Fi is actually the one that creates an internal value system based on what the person thinks is right. Fe usually reacts to the Feelings as they come. INFJ's aren't usually the most concerned about social values... I adhere to them to convey my good will, but if they asked me to do something I thought was wrong, I probably wouldn't.

Let's try another question, then. Do you sort of perceive feelings by looking at or imagining a situation, and trying to picture what you would do, or is it like you have this strong, visceral sense of right and wrong that you don't even need to imagine the situation or think about the other people's feelings to understand?

Also, are you an organized, punctual person? Are you good at making decisions? Do you wait until the last minute to do something?

 

[TenebrousReflection]

TenebreousReflection: Fi is actually the one that creates an internal value system based on what the person thinks is right. Fe usually reacts to the Feelings as they come. INFJ's aren't usually the most concerned about social values... I adhere to them to convey my good will, but if they asked me to do something I thought was wrong, I probably wouldn't.

Let's try another question, then. Do you sort of perceive feelings by looking at or imagining a situation, and trying to picture what you would do, or is it like you have this strong, visceral sense of right and wrong that you don't even need to imagine the situation or think about the other people's feelings to understand?

When I think about it a bit more, there are a few things I do strongly believe that could be a "value system" of sorts, but they are more generic ideas like the importance of "freedom", "individuality", "honesty/authenticity" and "love".

If I'm imagining something that has not yet occurred, then I evaluate the situation and ask myself what I think the right thing to do would be (when I imagine a scenario, I usually get a feeling rsponse from it that helps guide me), but also weigh that against the results that might occur for doing it.

If I'm responding to something in the present, then how I feel tends to be pretty clear. Its like I just know that "this is what feels like the right thing to do" and its usually an overpowering feeling. I do reflect on the feelings and try to figure out why I feel so strongly and sometimes try to rationalize the feelings, but sometimes I'll have already took action before I do that. Its usually these feelings that create the goals that I feel a strong need to pursue.

In more complicated scenarios, I know that I need to be very cautious and tactful in how I follow through to avoid causing misunderstandings that could harm or even ruin relationships and sometimes I cant think of any way to do what I think is right that would not have the risk of longterm damage to a friendship and have to wait and hope a time will come when I can follow through on what I feel I should do. When I feel like I'm treading on emotionally dangerous ground, I try to be as organized and detailed as possible with the intent of minimizing misunderstanding and sometimes go so far as trying to detach myself from the situation and describe things objectively to make my point in a more rational way. FWIW, most of these involve me feeling like I should "express my true feelings (authenticity)" when I know its "inappropriate" to do so.

I'm not concerned with what society will think, but I am very concerned how my views would be seen by the friends that my thoughts and feelings relate to.

Also, are you an organized, punctual person? Are you good at making decisions? Do you wait until the last minute to do something?

I let clutter accumulate (somewhat organized clutter, like stacks of like items, but I just put them wherever there happens to be room) until it reaches a point where its hard to find stuff, then I go through and try to apply some structure to it and go back to letting new clutter accumulate.

I'm very rarely late, and very rarely "on time". I 'm nearly always early because I like to have a buffer for things to go wrong and take corrective action if needed.

Trivial decisions (most work related stuff), its easy for me to just trust my intuition and go with the first thing that comes to mind.

Decisions that could have a longterm impact. Unless its one of those "my heart tells me to do this" instant decisions, I agonize over decisions and gather as much information as possible to be sure I'm making an informed decision and unless somewhere along the process I get a moment where everything seems to click together and the answer becomes clear ("oh, duh, how could I have even considered anythgin else"), I second guess my decisions quite often until I see how they play out. I feel like I should trust my intuition more since I nearly always reach the same conclusion as my first guess, but its hard for me to do on important matters.

If its something I don't want to do, then I will procrastinate till the last minute. If its something I want to do, I usually take immediate action.

 

[nightning]

Thank you, it is very refreshing to see this noticed and pointed out! I don't know how many others think this accurate, but it's spot on for me. I went through a stage of thinking I was INTJ because of the way F is defined, but in the F/T deciders on tests (which I think have a highly imperfect, almost coincidental association with the official definitions but are more valid) I relate much more strongly to the F and the kind of people who score as Fs.

*nods* I notice a lot of INFJs on this forum, myself included, are like that. Some of my classmates who has heard about MBTI (mostly NTs) thought I'm an NT as well. INTJ to be exact, even though I know very well I'm an F. I think it's the almost continual insistence to understand something fully and to accurately describe ideas that make it seem Tish. Although I cannot say if all INFJs are this way, or only the Ti inclined ones frequent this forum. Some people in INFJ forums/mailing lists are certainly not like that... but I'm not sure if they are correctly typed.

 

[xNFJiminy]

I think it's the almost continual insistence to understand something fully and to accurately describe ideas that make it seem Tish.

Me too. That, and my repeated assertions that everyone should either completely disregard or thoroughly question their initial feelings about any particular issue before coming to a conclusion. And how in that context I disparage feelings as one of humanity's two most significant defects.

Maybe it's because we analyse our own emotions and their place in everything, as extensively and objectively as an NT analyses but with the focus on and awareness of feelings of an F.

Either that, or...

Do Ts like Jiminy Cricket?

 

[cafe]

I am Jiminy Flippin' Cricket. When I was a kid I was in high demand because parents wanted their kids to hang out with me. I was considered a good influence.

I cannot stand Pinocchio. He put his dad through Hades because he just would not listen.