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  1. #1
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Default Functions

    Do the functions for each type always remain fixed in emphasis? For example the INFJ has Ni Fe Ti Se, for theirs. Does this mean that every INFJ prefers these in this order? After much thought, I've wondered if I am in fact an INFJ, but with those functions as Ni Ti Fe Se. My thinking and intuition are interwoven, and my feeling and sensing are likewise. When viewing the totality of my life, it is clear to me that my thinking is stronger than feeling. There is simply no way I could have survived the choices and obstacles I've faced without the ability to maintain distance from my feelings and perspective. This is apparent from childhood, through adolescence, and into adulthood. It's a funny question, but is it possible to be an F who actually has a stronger T?

    Any thoughts?
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    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Yes they all stay in the same order. Though it may not seem that way in different periods of our lives.

    Ages 0-10 Full focus on the first function--Ni
    10-20 Shift onto the Second, yet solidifying the first--intense focus on first function
    20-30 Shift onto the third, intense focus on the second
    30-40 Shift onto the last, and more focus on the third
    40-50 Intensify the focus on the inferior function

    It is the order that makes a temperament, not the functions.

    Ni Fe Ti Se--This is an INFJ

    Let me rearrange them..Ti Se Ni Fe--ISTP, all the same functions..

    As an INFJ, you may think that your Ti precedes your Fe perhaps because you were in the stage of your life where you were developing your third function and because of the circumstances you were forced to rely on it more than on your feeling function.

    Ni Ti Fe Se is impossible because the secondary station has to be focused in a different direction than the first. Like Jung said, nobody gains all energy exclusively from introversion or extroversion, such a person would be in a lunatic asylum.

    Generally, when we think that our two strongest functions are aimed in the same direction it is the case that we are relying much more on our dominant function rather than secondary.

    For example, an INFJ may be so absorbed in their Ni that whatever Fe claims goes to serve the Ni, the focus of which is internal. You dont become an Ni-Fi, (Fi is an entirely different mechanism), it is just that your Fe energy is unnaturally focused inwards. I am using the word unnaturally because Fe is meant to be on the outside and will not handle properly unless it is aimed in that direction.

    To answer your question, no you cant be an F with a stronger T, the more your inferior functions grow the more they push the superior ones forward. Albeit you can get very comfortable with your T and be in situations where you are forced to use it, (but in the meantime while your T grows, F is being pushed ahead automatically) and you may see how strong your T is because there is clear-cut evidence for this, but you may not be able to see how strong your F has become as a result. And therefore assume that the T is actually stronger.

    This is why you cant develop your inferior functions ahead of the superior ones, you just wont be able to focus on them and will be forced to turn to those that are higher in rank. If you already have a strong Fe, you'll be free to develop your Ti, but not before that point.

    Another way to think of this is that we use our superior functions first, so every time you use your Ti, you have to go through the Fe first.
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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Really? Then explain why I have reasonable Ti skills, even though I'm only 19? The order may be correct, but those ages are ridiculously limited.

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Just to throw a slightly different spin on things, I wouldn't say that my Ti had been ignored in favor of my Ne in terms of growth. It still existed and I used it constantly. It was very strong.

    However, what I showed other people and what I actively used publicly was the Ne. Few people ever saw my Ti in action. What secrets and thoughts and concepts I developed stayed solely with me; I never articulated them for others because I felt threatened by others when I did so. It was dangerous to express a judgment outwardly in my life.

    So I had my own inner model of the world that was mine and mine alone. And my judgment of others occurred constantly but was rarely expressed. And much of my Ti was aimed at myself and my own hypocrisies and weaknesses. It was all internalized.

    Ne seemed to be more developed because it was the function I used to interface with other people. It was not abrasive, people seemed to appreciate it, everyone loves a dreamer (as long as they're just sharing visions, not trying to impose them), it's like magic -- and since it was all tied to distinct possibilities that others could follow once I stated them, it wasn't completely bizarre as Ni can be sometimes. It's accessible by the S types a little more easily.

    Does that make any sense? There are possibly two reasons (among others) why an introverted primary/secondary might not seem developed:
    1. It has been completely internalized and kept from being exposed to others, because of the danger (physical, emotional, mental) involved.
    2. It has not been allowed to link up with the secondary/primary and work in tandem because this would require an outward expression that could be dangerous -- and it's not just a matter of strengthening the functions separately, but also developing the strength of the INTERACTION between primary and secondary, to make an effective team. (Rather like having two individual players who are quite good in their separate spheres, but they still might make a lousy team because they have not practiced TOGETHER and INTEGRATED well yet.)

    At least, that is what came to mind now. Does it make any sense?
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    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Do the functions for each type always remain fixed in emphasis? For example the INFJ has Ni Fe Ti Se, for theirs. Does this mean that every INFJ prefers these in this order? After much thought, I've wondered if I am in fact an INFJ, but with those functions as Ni Ti Fe Se.
    This depends on whose sequential order you prescribe to. You appear to be alluding to Beebe's order, which shows the subsequent four cognitive functions for INFJ as: Ne-Fi-Te-Si. However, Lenore Thomson says the order for INFJ is something like this: Ni-Fe-Si-Te-Fi-Ne-Ti-Se. I am remembering the latter from memory, so someone who has her book can maybe check my work.
    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    My thinking and intuition are interwoven, and my feeling and sensing are likewise. When viewing the totality of my life, it is clear to me that my thinking is stronger than feeling. There is simply no way I could have survived the choices and obstacles I've faced without the ability to maintain distance from my feelings and perspective.
    For the life of me, I can't understand why people who are supposed to be an intelligent type continue to miss the most basic principle(s) of type. You seem to imply that you prefer the usage of cognition to emotions, when all functions are cognitive. There is no emotions involved when referring to type. As such, feeling (especially Fe) is more rational than Ti or Ne (both irrational functions). That may be where you are continuing to be confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    This is apparent from childhood, through adolescence, and into adulthood. It's a funny question, but is it possible to be an F who actually has a stronger T?
    At some point, you do develop the other functions, however Thomson says that you should not attempt full development with your weaker functions, because it is not possible. At best the development protects us from faux pas, when using them, i.e., dominant Ti types will never be capable of fully using Fe. In the end, INFJs are the most conceptual of the NF types. Also, Ni and Ti can look a like, as can Fe and Ne. I posted that information on here and intpc in the past. As such, INFJ and INTP do look-a-like and ISTP and INTJ look-a-like.

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    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Is it possible for there to be borderline types? Just as there are right and left hand preferences, but also individuals who are ambidextrous? If there were borderline types, how would that affect these functions?

    btw: I have not studied these systems in depth. I'm just starting to gain familiarity. It's why I have questions.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  7. #7
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    There are no borderline types, types in themselves are clearly defined, albeit your dominant and inferior functions can be both clearly developed and therefore make it seem like one does not have a definite advantage over the other. This is what makes it easy for us to mistype ourselves--a high skill level with the non-preferred faculties.

    Type is just an unconscious tendency, it is either in favor of one or the other. No reason why we cant do well with things that we are not naturally drawn to..but that again, shows that its not a good idea to try to see what you're naturally drawn to based only on what we're good at. We'd have to go much farther than that--thoroughly examine the way our unconscious mind works.
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    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Really? Then explain why I have reasonable Ti skills, even though I'm only 19? The order may be correct, but those ages are ridiculously limited.
    Did I say that you could only be good at a function if you've undergone a period of intense focus on the aforementioned?

    Intuition cultivates both Thinking and Feeling, so both NTs and NFs should be adept, at least on the crude level with their unpreferred judging function before they managed to devote unconscious energy specifically to that entity.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #9
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Do the functions for each type always remain fixed in emphasis? For example the INFJ has Ni Fe Ti Se, for theirs. Does this mean that every INFJ prefers these in this order? After much thought, I've wondered if I am in fact an INFJ, but with those functions as Ni Ti Fe Se. My thinking and intuition are interwoven, and my feeling and sensing are likewise. When viewing the totality of my life, it is clear to me that my thinking is stronger than feeling. There is simply no way I could have survived the choices and obstacles I've faced without the ability to maintain distance from my feelings and perspective. This is apparent from childhood, through adolescence, and into adulthood. It's a funny question, but is it possible to be an F who actually has a stronger T?

    Any thoughts?
    I don't know enough about MBTI to have any answers, but it's pretty much the same for me. I have to 'think' things through rationally, with little or no feeling, to see things the way they really are, then decide how I 'feel' about them. Not necessarilly emotionally, of course, it's not that kind of feeling. Moral judgements, I suppose. The right and wrong of things. I've had the very same questions as these. I can be a very strong T. Growing up, I had to be, always having to 'think' things through, distancing myself from my emotions. Survival was everything. As I grew, I knew being the hardass just wasn't me. I 'felt' more than I ever knew. It's about a preference, not an absolute.

    Edit: "?" makes a lot of sense to me. I shoulda read him/her first.
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  10. #10
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    some rather intedependent reasoning, take it or leave it:


    types may be "defined" but what about idiot savants, or full blown geniusses?

    carl jung describes how ONE function gets slowly developed by the individual.

    the other ones may be subconsciously present but must be different by deffintion from defined functions as the latter are only describable by observing people who have those function developed. you can not scientificly define a undifferenciated fucntion if you cannot observe it as such, due tu it beeing subconscious.
    you can only assume about it.
    you may assign observed symptoms to the assumed model of the subconsciousness, as jung did quite well.

    so now we have a lucky owner of ONE function.

    say, it's Fi.

    evetually that Fi person will differenciate another function.

    that would be Ne or Se.

    this is what can be obseved. all further things are mainly theories. observations of patterns are cool, but never secure.

    some theories of the relations of functioans are based on reasonable sources, like brain anatomy, but still there are so much error sources in those theories.

    lane friesen theorizes something loosely like this: when the consciousness starts to conquer all functions (- that is, the subject retreats by transcending consciosness, that is, by objectifiying it -), there will be a closed cirquit and so the whole type, as known, will be transcendet.
    this rarely happens if it happens at all.


    jung doesnt even describe the sixteen types in his book "typology".
    he describes eight types.
    Te+Fe+Ne+Se
    Ti+Fi+Ni+Se

    that is interesting, because it leaves the Fi types who are clearly assigned in his descriptions to the infj archetype (or judger archetype) and traits are not even associoated with intuition, in the way keirsey is generous about doing so. but the Ni types ARE strongly seperated from the Si types. (nevertheless there are similarities in Ni and Si)

    i find that way of dividing types into groups more natural.

    i can easily jump in my associoations from isfp to infp to intp who all share introverted perceiving functions as first function. (true in context of the former paragraph ! socionics style). it is much harder to jump between all "intuititives".

    that suggests, that a "borderline" type between NiFe and SiFe can not exist (though you might easily confuse them when still searching the relevant patterns of Ni and Si) but there can be quite likely be a borderline type between NiFe and NiTe.

    that is, if the desicion in which direction our Ni type would develope (Fe or Te) has not jet been "cemented"

    translation to the mbti-world:

    if you would insist on the mbti function assignment, you would respectively still do good, to learn (try out) the assosiative jumps from type to type based on similarites or quality of the first function. introverteds as an example:

    (NiFe + NiTe) + (SiFe + SiTe) .... the capulets
    ----------------------------------------------
    (TiNe + TiSe) + (FiNe + FiSe) .... the montagues




    in my personal notes i totally reject the crappy J/P-four letter code, and work only with functions.

    the four letter code is like selling cars to aboriginals and claiming cars were moved by the gods.



    i kinda lost the read line.


    i dont know at which rates people statistically develope their functions, but i think the table above is verry "optimistic". i can see paterns in the table that i know from other stage-systems. thats from where i take my judgement.

    most people in the world dont even EVER make it verry much past the developement, that is often assigned to a CLICHEE healthy educated bright western civilisation adolecent between 18 and 22.

    young generations in rich countries are often developing faster ....

    it is normal for older generations or generations in poorer countries to never enter the stages that are "commonly" assigned to an age of 21 or 28.

    if there is a narcistic or similar pathology or if someone is just not strong spirited it is also common to not go over the stages that are asigned to childhod. that is true for all sorts of developemtal lines, not just for e.g morals. it is, because a pathology on the main line (self core) acts like a gravitiy that keeps the potential for most other lines rather low. often, not allways.


    so when i look around, what i see are PLENTY of people who have at best two differenciated functions.

    but that does not mean, undifferenciated people or borderline type are REALLY "equal" or similar. just look at "physiognomy" (aka VI). even little cognitive differentiation comes with verry strong type patterns, as if the route of developement was determined by birth or early childhood, even if there never was the potential to follow that route to the end. often the oddities/patterns are stronger, the less differenciated someone is.

    think of bag in wich a stone rotates all the time in only one way. that bag will clearly display that rotation. add 2 further stones, with additional orbits. the bag no longer reveals so much about its contents. but it might still be quite different from another bag, that started with a rotating hammer inside


    (i have not slept this night :p )
    Last edited by nanook; 07-23-2007 at 09:24 PM.

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