User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 23

  1. #11
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,619

    Default

    I have to see your function order again.
    If I remember correctly you presented two sets of function order that showed a very interesting pattern.
    There are diverse models of function order. People do not tend to ascribe perfectly to any of the models.
    If you are happy with the INFJ description then you are an INFJ. It means you fit the INFJ model type pattern closest (of the 16 model type patterns).

    If I remember correctly you showed in your cognitive processes test result an INFP pattern and as well an INTP pattern. It does not mean you are not an INFJ.
    It only shows you are adept at using a handful of diverse cognitive processes mechanisms.
    This is evident not only in the tests you took but also in your posts.
    There is no paradox.
    You have a highly developed Ti Ne. It is not in the tertiary department.

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Well, actually, I wouldn't say that I fit the INFJ description exactly, that's just the result I get most commonly, and that's why I use that (I stopped relying on descriptions a long time ago, they just baffled me). I just highly doubt that I'm a P, because I need a lot of order in my environment, and can't deal well with chaos or change, I like consistancy. Also, I tend to notice details such as incorrect spelling, errors in meaning, and broken rules. I very much believe that people should adhere to rules and laws, because otherwise society will decend into chaos.

    Actually, the three type patterns that emerged from the function test as strong were: ISFJ, INFP, INTP.

    Now, I'm sure any of the many Ti-dominant INTP's would be happy to explain and illustrate how much weaker my Ti function is compared to thiers.

    Oh, and they'll also tell you how poor my Ne is, because I have no sense of humor, and don't obsessively seek novelty, because in fact I avoid it. I once tried to stop the adoption of a new character encoding method because I didn't want ASCII to be swept aside.

    And what are "Cognitive Process Mechanisms"? Groups of two functions that usually represent a particular type?

  3. #13
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,619

    Default

    With the mechanisms I mean the interplay of the introverted judging functions with the extraverted perceiving functions and vice versa. That this interplay is a fact one can well see in the cognitive processes test results of people. They show the pattern.
    Yes I checked. You have an ISFJ pattern in your test result. Among other highly developed patterns. Also you show the ISFJ kind of thinking in the post 12. People should adhere to rules and laws.. very ISFJ.
    There are also bad laws. In this benighted country the laws are rapidly changing very much for the worse. The labour union and the civil servants have a frightening power. They are ignorant or/and corrupt. The politicians toe their line. The laws passed in the parliament create unemployment and mental problems and poverty to many people. Also people who have done nothing wrong are forcibly taken from their homes and placed in badly maintained institutions. Why? Because they are individualistic and they happen to be slightly different from the other (read: ISTJ) people.

    No, I do not think an enlightened individual should adhere to pernicious laws.
    In Nazi Germany they passed laws that dictated that Jews and Gypsies have no rights and they can be killed without punishment.
    No, I do not believe in any such laws. I do not believe in authority. I believe in civil disobedience.

    The other of the tests did not tell you have a poor Ne.
    Test again every month you see. I think it is there all right. You need it for your Fi and Ti.

    I do not see seek a novelty of any kind. I dislike it in the extreme. I believe in a life pattern of order. When somebody removes an object from the usual place I am completely lost. And yet I have a very high Ne.

    Which of the decripions fit you best? As you allude, maybe it is an inane question.

    If you think the Keirsey description does not fit you at all, why do you then think you are an INFJ?

    INFJ Links - Dolphin Cove

    INFJ Profile

    and from there you can link to ISFJ, INFP and INTP.

    I am a Ti-dominant INTP and I do not think your Ti function is any way weaker than mine. Maybe it is a way stronger.

  4. #14
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    INFJ description:

    I hold convictions about the important matters in life that I don't always express, true. I have a knack for verbal communication and self-expression, true.

    However, I would never risk saving someone from an emergency. I would probably call the police to deal with the situation. I don't fantasize about getting revenge on those who victimize the defenceless, I prefer to believe that our courts will deal with them, and don't let it enter my mind. Also, I'm not terribly selective about my friends, I'll show kindness and friendship to anyone who returns mine, and may even show it to them first, if they seem nice enough. However, I do avoid people who are very crass, seem threatening, just give me chills, or have slighted me in the past.

    ISFJ description:

    Most of it is true, actually... except for my desire to serve. I'm not that interested in serving people in practial ways (although I will if they ask me to). But I do enjoy providing emotional support. In fact, I jump at the chance to provide it when it appears. I actually do want others to return it, although I would never ask them to. I just expect them to know. Also, I don't obsess infinitely over the quality of everything I do, I only do it to a set personal standard. Unless I really need to make a good impression, then I might fuss over trying to do it perfectly. I'm not usually overworked, I actually try to minimize my obligations, albeit I dutifully fulfill the ones that I accept. Finally, I usually allow my home to become cluttered and in disarray, but if someone comes over (which is rare), I'll clean everything up before they arrive. I never let anyone see my home in a mess, unless it's an emergency. I never do anything on a whim, it always has to be planned at least a day in advance.

    INFP Description:

    Almost entirely false. I'm not an optimist (in fact I'm a pessimist), and I don't find it difficult to express my feelings. The only thing that might be true is that I struggle with my own ethical perfection.

    INTP Description:

    This one is also eerily accurate. However, I detest math, and I usually do look for an application of the things I ponder, although I don't always find one at first. The application I usually find is that I intrigue other people with similar interests, which of course I enjoy doing. Also, I usually prefer actual conversations to word games.

  5. #15
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    TiSe
    Posts
    1,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I'm a bit perplexed. First of all, Ti is my tertiary function, so I couldn't have been describing it.
    I am not sure what you thought you were describing, but when you said
    ”…. we appear to overanalyze everything, and seem to care about nuances that they consider ridiculous. If you look at it from their perspective, they're right, because we always try to understand a thing's underlying nature, and/or what it means.”
    What do you think you were describing, if it wasn’t this
    Introverted Thinking: Analyzing; categorizing; evaluating according to principles and whether something fits the framework or model; figuring out the principles on which something works; checking for inconsistencies; clarifying definitions to get more precision.
    Ni dominant types don’t analyze, they intuit which is
    Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing “what will be”; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols.
    and Ne types
    Interpret situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts.
    So, I don’t know what you thought you could not be doing, but what you described is not intuition. As an ISTP, I over analyze.
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Also, I know the difference between SJ's and SP's. SJ's are judicious, prompt, and regimented, and value institutions, and specific procedures. SP's are chaotic, random, aggressive, and rather tasteless.
    You did not describe either, instead referenced to something that you have read. Do you know anyone personally who has stated that they were SJ or SP? On the other hand, if what you describe above is what you believe, then what cognitive functions are being used?
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    What they both have in common is a tendancy to have more of an awareness of what happens, rather than it's meaning. They just learn how to do things, but they don't usually try to discover the meaning or the principle behind the things they do or the things that exist, they are just accepted as standards (for SJ's) or as realities (for SP's).
    What you just described is usually the average conversation I see here and at INTPC, with people half learning this system then attempting to create theory, when not fully understanding the basic principles, ie not all sensors are the same, all types do use all eight functions and Si, and Se types theoretically will have a better development of Ni than NPs. The list goes on in regards to the half baked ideas posted here, which only shows lack of knowledge of the basic principles.
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    They react to them differently, the SJ's trying to maintain things the way they've seen them before, and the SP's just dealing with it as existing, and doing with it whatever makes them feel good at the moment, without pausing to contemplate what it represents. I wasn't talking about adapting to your environment, that's what SP's excel at. I was talking about understanding the meaning or purpose behind what you do, rather than merely the procedure or object (for SJ's), or the event or process (for SP's) I apologize for my unclear word choices.
    You have read Keirsey, so what? PUM II is the biggest joke, and MBTI enthusiasts such as Naomi Quenck and Lenore Thomson totally make it known that Keirsey’s system is not MBTI.
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    You are right that all types use all functions, but the point is that using anything other than your first two or three functions (dominant, auxiliary, and tertiary) is very uncomfortable or difficult. My point was to illustrate that both types need each other, not to imply that Sensors are worthless. Didn't you see that?
    So let me understand what you are saying. Assuming that you are old enough, or do, drive, what function do you think you are using when you hit a slick spot or attempting to evade an acident? Or, should I be concerned because you are admitting that you are an accident waiting to happen? I will tell you what you use, it’s
    Extraverted Sensation is orientation to your environment by immediate, gut-level response. "Trust your gut." Orienting to your environment this way, you don't think, you don't reflect, you just react.
    Any other function is not going to work. Also, you have already admitted to using Ti, so your entire theory here is in error. However, if you can show me a definition of Ni or Ne being over analytical, I would love to entertain it.

  6. #16
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    TiSe
    Posts
    1,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The "?" ISTP said you are not describing an intuitive process but a Ti process. I disagree. There is no Ti process. The functions unite and they work united. Ti is either Se or Ne, and yours is surely Ne. Besides, you are a Fi Ne and you can turn it around and be a Ni Fe.
    Now that's just stupid to say that Ti is not a process, and just shows a lack of the system to say that it cannot be used independent of any function. When in deep thought, and attempting to figure something out, you are using Ti. You do not have to be using an extraverted function to Ti. Any time you categorize, seek clarity or anything else, you are cognitively processing using Ti.

  7. #17
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    11,925

    Default

    I agree that Ti is an analyzing function. But when the auxiliary is connected to it, there is quite a difference in expression.

    For the ISTP, this may lead them to be math whizzes, since math is a form of analysis used to solve outer-world concrete problems. Hence, the ISTP may be a good mechanic, engineer, computer programmer, or scientist. Ti coupled with Se could also lead them to be good athletes, since they analyze what their next move should be in the here-and-now.

    The INTP could be less into math, since they're less interested in the here-and-now and more interested in theory. Hence, they are the stereotypical absent-minded professors -- they analyze their own conceptions. So in essence, they are logical like the ISTP, but it's a more abstract logic that doesn't involve solving concrete problems. Therefore, the INTP is more interested in the theoretical sciences, such as architecture.

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    You do not have to be using an extraverted function to Ti. Any time you categorize, seek clarity or anything else, you are cognitively processing using Ti.
    Is it perhaps that you have nothing to categorize or clarify unless you gathered it from an external source, though?

    That is the thing: Perhaps Ti is a process, just a cookbook describes processes... but unless you buy ingredients and inflict the process on them, the process is useless. It needs external items to act upon -- hence Ti must work in conjunction with SOME sort of externalized data-gathering function (and this is what I understood WC to be alluding to).

    The only difference I can imagine at the moment is that once Ti DOES get some external data to process, it can then generate new thoughts on its own, and evaluate THEM in turn, because it is conceptual in nature (it "thinks about thinking")... so it's almost like a perpetual motion machine once it is primed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The only difference I can imagine at the moment is that once Ti DOES get some external data to process, it can then generate new thoughts on its own, and evaluate THEM in turn, because it is conceptual in nature (it "thinks about thinking")... so it's almost like a perpetual motion machine once it is primed.
    I think we call that as losing one's grip on reality. I don't think that is what is being said though. "?" is correct in the sense that Ti is being used to process... but you are also correct that it is not Ti being used seperate from the data (from N/S, e/i)

    The functions are just a theoretical framework that describe dimensions of preference - they do not operate "individually" in a healthy individual (I would go as far as to say in any non-comatose individual), but generally only one facet of F/T is in action at a time. Everything we process has some form of grounding in physical reality, and everything we see is processed to some degree. Dreaming might very well be what happens when certain areas of the brain shut down(^1).


    ^1
    The brain centers that went ''off line'' during REM sleep were equally striking. Cortical regions responsible for the most sophisticated mental processes, like planning, abstraction, logical thinking and the contextual flow of memories, showed decreased activity, as did the primary visual cortex, in charge of receiving visual input from the outside world. Imaging studies by other researchers have yielded similar results.

  10. #20
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    TiSe
    Posts
    1,167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I agree that Ti is an analyzing function. But when the auxiliary is connected to it, there is quite a difference in expression.

    For the ISTP, this may lead them to be math whizzes, since math is a form of analysis used to solve outer-world concrete problems. Hence, the ISTP may be a good mechanic, engineer, computer programmer, or scientist. Ti coupled with Se could also lead them to be good athletes, since they analyze what their next move should be in the here-and-now.

    The INTP could be less into math, since they're less interested in the here-and-now and more interested in theory. Hence, they are the stereotypical absent-minded professors -- they analyze their own conceptions. So in essence, they are logical like the ISTP, but it's a more abstract logic that doesn't involve solving concrete problems. Therefore, the INTP is more interested in the theoretical sciences, such as architecture.
    Interesting theory, and a very good comparative analysis Uber.... however, I always thought that INTPs preferred preferred pure math.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-23-2013, 12:54 AM
  2. [ENTJ] How do ENTJs become likeable and less threatening to others?
    By ThatGirl in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 241
    Last Post: 01-09-2011, 10:48 PM
  3. [NF] Why do (if they do) INFJ's and INFP's like each other?
    By hopeseed in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-25-2009, 02:45 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO