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  1. #71
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Agreed that jung's theories are unfalsifiable and thus isn't science. There's no way to prove or disprove whether these cognitive functions actually exists... however that's in somewhat a different realm than correlation of planetary movements to personality. As I said before, there are different types of pseudoscience. One is a model, the other is attempts to provide an explanation. A model taken too far becomes the other. The category system of MBTI stands on its own regardless of whether cognitive functions exists or not.
    How funny and completely inaccurate. How can you make such an assertion when Myers-Briggs created MBTI after Jung’s work? She uses the cognitive functions ergo it’s not a stand alone system and is in direct correlation with Jung. I stand corrected, it’s not in correlation since his came first, the whole basic principle of her system cannot survive without Jung’s theory. Why would you even attempt to make such an argument?
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Astrology and zodiacs do not stand on their own. The correlation between planet movements and personality types must be there for it to work. MBTI lets people categorize themselves. Its only assumption is that people can be divided into types. And they created some arbitrary divisions based on their theories. Do you see the difference between the two?
    Again, MBTI as alluded to earlier depends on Jung’s work being accurate and the cognitive functions being in existence. Otherwise what else would the four letter codes represent? As for allowing people to categorize themselves, you seem to being making the argument that type is not innate contrary to Myers-Briggs’ assertion, and that we can change our type as we choose. Therefore the type tests are meaningless since based on your argument we can merely look at a description and decide that is what we prefer today. You are either arguing the illusion of both systems, but you can’t separate them.

  2. #72
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    You folks never cease to amaze me. To dismiss astrology is to dismiss cognitive functions, ergo MBTI, Keirsey, etc…. It all derives from astrology, archetype, the occult, etc…. Jung based his work on all of the above.
    The big difference, which for some reason no one is seeing, is this --

    IN MBTI, YOU GET TO CHOOSE YOUR TYPE BASED ON YOUR LIFE.

    You can't choose in astrology. It would be like me saying everyone born in January is ESTP! I seriously can't see how anyone can defend against this argument.

  3. #73
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    How funny and completely inaccurate. How can you make such an assertion when Myers-Briggs created MBTI after Jung’s work? She uses the cognitive functions ergo it’s not a stand alone system and is in direct correlation with Jung. I stand corrected, it’s not in correlation since his came first, the whole basic principle of her system cannot survive without Jung’s theory. Why would you even attempt to make such an argument?
    Because I apply models. That's what I use them for. In the end, if the only working model I have that can be used to describe patterns I've seen in a useful manner has theories that may be complete BS, I'll still use it because I have nothing else to go on. Clearly the model has flaws, but it still has a purpose.

    What are the principles? Division of people into 16 personality types? I've complained on this forum many times about the inadequacies of the 16 types in understanding behaviour. However I still use it as a basic framework because it's nonetheless a starting point.

    It's no different than some of the imagery metaphors I use when I try to puzzle something out. Is there a basis for using that specific imagery? No, but it's helpful and so I use it.

    Again, MBTI as alluded to earlier depends on Jung’s work being accurate and the cognitive functions being in existence. Otherwise what else would the four letter codes represent? As for allowing people to categorize themselves, you seem to being making the argument that type is not innate contrary to Myers-Briggs’ assertion, and that we can change our type as we choose. Therefore the type tests are meaningless since based on your argument we can merely look at a description and decide that is what we prefer today. You are either arguing the illusion of both systems, but you can’t separate them.
    Let's try this again... the type labels in my mind is useful because people identify with them and it divides up differences in personality into pieces that are easily handled. It's no different than us arbitrary labelling the rainbow as 7 distinct colors when in reality wavelengths of light is a continuum. This division can be use regardless of whether Jung's work is accurate or not.

  4. #74
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Psychology isn't based on the forer effect... it's actually based on philosophy...
    Forrer Effect, you are what you choose to believe.

    I expect that someday an intresting fact will be revealed, which will show a close connection between human biochemistry and the nature it evolved in.
    Thats deep dude.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  5. #75
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    Forrer Effect, you are what you choose to believe.
    Please take a look at the history of psychology then get back to me.

  6. #76
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Folks who understand astrology, may I point out that you are trying to get a Scorpio, Aquarius rising, Aquarius moon to change its mind? Eh ... FIXED FIXED and FIXED. Unless you enjoy slamming your head against the wall, save your breath to cool your soup.

  7. #77
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Because I apply models. That's what I use them for. In the end, if the only working model I have that can be used to describe patterns I've seen in a useful manner has theories that may be complete BS, I'll still use it because I have nothing else to go on. Clearly the model has flaws, but it still has a purpose.

    What are the principles? Division of people into 16 personality types? I've complained on this forum many times about the inadequacies of the 16 types in understanding behaviour. However I still use it as a basic framework because it's nonetheless a starting point.

    It's no different than some of the imagery metaphors I use when I try to puzzle something out. Is there a basis for using that specific imagery? No, but it's helpful and so I use it.


    Let's try this again... the type labels in my mind is useful because people identify with them and it divides up differences in personality into pieces that are easily handled. It's no different than us arbitrary labelling the rainbow as 7 distinct colors when in reality wavelengths of light is a continuum. This division can be use regardless of whether Jung's work is accurate or not.
    So what you are saying is that based on your own subjective opinion that are in contrast to facts, you are basing your judgement that astrology is inferior to MBTI. That's fine, but it's still untrue based on facts.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    So what you are saying is that based on your own subjective opinion that are in contrast to facts, you are basing your judgement that astrology is inferior to MBTI. That's fine, but it's still untrue based on facts.
    Well...MBTI and what not are based on what you actually do, whereas astrology is not, and is based on when you were born. It seems to me that predicting character traits and behavior based on character traits and behavior is more logical.

  9. #79
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Every time I read about astrology, and hear about blue moons and scorpions and happy stars and what not, I cringe.

    I'm know some people really believe in the accuracy of astrology, but I'm sure anyone could create any vague arbitrary system and get people to perceive it as accurate.

  10. #80
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Well...MBTI and what not are based on what you actually do, whereas astrology is not, and is based on when you were born. It seems to me that predicting character traits and behavior based on character traits and behavior is more logical.
    However you are predicting traits from a series of questions. The only difference is you get to choose whether you are correct or not. Based on many years of posting on the forums, it's quite apparent that most get it wrong initially.

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