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  1. #51
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    This I disagree with. Victor has tried to understand MBTI and has come to his conclusions that it's of little use to him. And for that he is enlightened.

    Disagree once again with your and his interpretation that MBTI is a believe. It's not... just a model. If it works for you, use it. If it doesn't that's okay too.

    Relate it back to astrology... is astrology a model? No, I can't see it as such. The basic premise is you as a person is correlated to the movement of the planets because of this, you can learn about your personality through the position of these heavenly bodies. There is your causality. Because there's a correlation, then this follows... The correlation has never been demonstrated though... no matter how many times people looked at it. Nor can we find a rationale for such correlation to exists. That's my biggest pet peeve with astrology.
    Yeah, you misunderstood me.

    I put "belief" in quotation marks because it's a silly word to use. And I said as much afterward.

    He is overstepping his bounds to shove his assertions on others wherever he can. It would be one thing if he said "I don't understand why ..." and asked people to explain or something. But the truth is, he's not curious. Because he doesn't actually want information that contradicts him.

    He's not discussing, he's preaching. And he doesn't listen to points against him. He takes them all as "oh, those poor, stupid souls; they're so blind!"



    MBTI isn't a belief system. It's a framework. Just like "left" and "right" is a dichotomy. Are you gonna go around saying "left" and "right" are bullshit? No, that's ridiculous. They aren't bullshit because they're useful to use as concepts. If you go victor's route, you should throw out language in general. It's all just metaphor. It isn't actually "true".

    I don't believe in "big" and "small". There is a cult of "big" and "small". It's pseudoscience!

  2. #52
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Measurement is whether it works? Well it depends on how you define that system doesn't it? Let's just say for now I'll go with your definition. Whether it works... the answer for me is no. And no sensible person reading my description will say it works for them. Because it's lacks internal consistency....

    This is a very bad flaw. A person is sometimes A and other times B? You might as well say if a person is not a introvert he must be an extrovert. Or rather at times he's quiet and if he's not being quiet, he's being loud. What does that explain? Nothing. Even the ignoramus me can tell you that.
    Dude. For example. I am an I. IRL, I don't talk much, I have one or two friends ata time, I like a lot of alone time. However, if the subject is interesting to me, I become very animated and I can talk for hours. This is true of most Is, no? How that bears out astrologically is that I have Mercury on my ascendant, which would indicate a person who is communicative. But I also have a 12th house Sun which would indicate a person who is solitary and retiring, also that I'm attracted to the occult meaning literally things that are hidden. Ok, so you read that I'm very communicative and then you read that I am retiring and solitary. Now you're going to tell me these two things cannot be true because they are contradictory. They contradict each other AND they are true -- they describe me perfectly if you combine them.

    MBTI talks about our shadow functions, inferior functions, how different people provoke different reactions within the same type (in other words, INFJ and ISTP get along differently and provoke different reactions in each other than INFJ and ENTP).

    You said
    But it's not okay to say a theory is true despite all the evidence against such theory.

    You have not read all the evidence. You have only read the work of people who are not astrologers.

    Here's a link you may find interesting.
    Planet Waves: Holographic Astrology by Eric Francis

  3. #53
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    ^Yeah, it's called the Forer effect.

    Case closed.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Again, these are people who don't know what they're talking about, reading descriptions to other people who don't know what they're talking about.

  5. #55
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Type in Forer Effect and MBTI in Google.

  6. #56
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Type in Forer Effect and MBTI in Google.
    The Forer Effect accounts for a lot of the pro-MBTI sentiment. But certainly not all.

    The Forer Effect accounts for ALL of the pro-astrology sentiment.

    The only possible thing I could think of that would affect personality based on time and place of birth is that maybe if it's really cold during some early point in development, some change is more likely. But that's about as far as you can take it without turning it into vageries and nonsense.

    Plus, that would only work if the person stayed put; didn't switch latitudes or anything.

  7. #57
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    The Forer Effect accounts for a lot of the pro-MBTI sentiment. But certainly not all.

    The Forer Effect accounts for ALL of the pro-astrology sentiment.
    Says who?

    Those who've seriously studied MBTI say it's not the Forer Effect. Those who've seriously studied astrology say it's not the Forer Effect.

  8. #58
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    "Those who've" doesn't mean anything to me.

    I want my argument refuted.

    Howabout this: list all of the factors that go into astrological "type". I'll use those to make a ridiculous claim that astrology defends by definition.

  9. #59
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    I'm too lazy for all that.

    The same way Victor disagrees with MBTI, you disagree with astrology. Who's right on either side, we'll never know, I guess.

  10. #60
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I'm too lazy for all that.

    The same way Victor disagrees with MBTI, you disagree with astrology. Who's right on either side, we'll never know, I guess.
    No, it's not the same, since I'm willing to engage in discussion.

    YOU aren't. Not my fault.

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