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  1. #11
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    But it's still a positive emotion, right? And that's under E, as you've explained. I'm still confused. I mean, having intensely positive yet intensely private emotions may not exactly yield a chipper mood, but it won't look like Ben Stein and be 'realistic', either.
    Perhaps extraversion affects what kinds of pleasures you like and how much you like them. I do remember reading somewhere that introverts are more sensitive to dopamine.

    As far as going head on into a project, it does sound like something a J type would like. So, I guess other traits can influence what you like.

  2. #12
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Neuroticism was originally a factor Hans Eysenck paired with E/I to define the ancient four temperaments. So the more critical temperaments, Melancholic and Choleric, were high in Neuroticism, and Sanguine and Phlegmatic were low. So this factor paralleled the people-task-focus already developing with Marston's DISC model. Both were forms of "response-time sustain", which told how long a person held on to reactions, including negative ones.

    Eventually, Eysenck added another factor, "Psychoticism", and when the FFM was developed, the N carried over, and Psychoticism was correlated with Agreeableness and Conscientiousness. The definitions for Agreeableness actually fit people/task-focus closer than Neuroticism.

    When FFM was correlated with MBTI by McRae and Costa, Agreeableness was paralleled to T/F; Conscientiousness with J/P, and Neuroticism was left out. The concept was originally apart of Myers' work, but left out because of its negativity. However, a new variation of MBTI aims to represent it in a factor called "Comfort-Discomfort".

    David Keirsey and Linda Berens would map out some new factors in their temperament and Interaction Styles models. These were not correlated with FFM, but do seem to be more direct parallels: Conscientiousness-Cooperativeness/Pragmatism; Agreeableness-Directing/Informing. With this, for S types; the correlations would fit Agreeableness=T/F; Conscientiousness=J/P. But for N types (iNtuitors, that is), it is reverse: Agreeableness=J/P; Conscientiousness=T/F.

    In the original four tempermanents, Neuroticism pretty much followed Agreeableness, though in an inverse fashion (high N=low A). That would suggest the more directive temperaments are also more Neurotic. Since both temperament and Interaction Style correapnd to the same four temperaments, then there is another factor called Structure/Motive, which mirrors Directing/Informing, and is basically another level of Agreeableness. Both Directing and Structure lean towards T and J, and Informing and Motive lean towards F and P. Under this theory, we would expect T and J to be more neurotic. J is easy to imagine, since they are strict about scheduling and ordering the outer world. T, with its typical "detachment", may seem more emotionally stable on the outside, but the tough-mindedness does lead to a lot of inner discomfort (like when things are illogical, arguing with people, etc). F might have more emotional reaction, but the key to Neuroticism is how much they hold on to it. F's apparently might be more likely not to, hence them being called more "friendly". FJ's and TP's will be mixed in N, therefore.
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  3. #13
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Neuroticism does have a hold on factor involved, but there is also a level of activation too. Someone low in N might take 50 units of stress to be bothered by it, while someone low might take only 25 units. The low N types get over stuff faster, and the high N types take longer.

  4. #14
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    i hope your not using that quote as your definition for T/F because that is by far one of the worst definitions i have ever heard.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  5. #15
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    It's a very nice topic.

    I think that the traits have many facets and thus a thinking type will never be able to score very high on all of them in the agreeableness realm.

    I generally score around 99 on extraversion, around 5 on neuroticism, and somewhat average in agreeablness; say, around 40-50. I'm very trustful and optimistic, but also very blunt and I can be somewhat aloof with people I do not like. I can easily have conflict with people I have no feelings towards (say, the police), but in a very calm and nice way. Overall, though, this combination is not particularly good for forming, say, "work" relationships (it can get on people's nerves that I am calm yet not very very agreeable); however I personally like it as far as personal relationships go.

    My girlfriend has low neuroticism (around 15-20) and high agreeablness. I personally think that being highly agreeable can increase your neuroticism in certain occasions, for example when people demand you favors, you agree - and then end up with an excessive amount of responsabilities.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #16
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    Ouch, there IS a big difference. It just shows my lack of celebrity knowledge.

    In a sense, yes. The opposite of the happiness that comes with extroversion is not sadness, it's just a lack off that happiness. Most people have at least some capacity for these feelings I forgot to also mention that a lot of positive social emotions go along with extroversion too and have to do with other facets. So you have four results based on the extremes.

    E and N- = Lots of positive emotions and few negative ones. Optimistic.
    E and N = Lots of emotions all over the place. Inconsistent.
    E- and N- = A lack of emotion. Realistic.
    E- and N = Lots of negative emotions and few positive ones. Pessimistic.
    I always wondered if any branch of FFM paired together any of the factors to outline "types".
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  7. #17
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I always wondered if any branch of FFM paired together any of the factors to outline "types".
    I have a book with a list of combinations of traits (or sometimes just a single trait or even a single facet) that results in some kind of ability, behavior, or potential. For example, extroversion with agreeableness causes someone to be warm and friendly. Of course you can derive the opposite from the opposite traits, introversion with a lack of agreeableness causes someone to be cold and unfriendly. It's interesting to ponder the results of having only one here. Only extroversion causes someone to be willing to talk to almost anyone, but they're usually inconsiderate and rude. If you're not extroverted but agreeable like me, you try to be nice and get along with everyone, but you probably won't talk to someone unless they talk to you first.

  8. #18
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    How mutable is FFM?

    Because I can imagine neuroticism skyrocketing with PTSD, extroversion and concientiousness dropping with depression, etc., however these people would probably be different from people who were naturally high/low in these traits.

    And neuroticism has to do with how 'fast' one gets 'over stuff'? What exactly does that mean? And does this count anticipation?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #19
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFF View Post
    I have a book with a list of combinations of traits (or sometimes just a single trait or even a single facet) that results in some kind of ability, behavior, or potential. For example, extroversion with agreeableness causes someone to be warm and friendly. Of course you can derive the opposite from the opposite traits, introversion with a lack of agreeableness causes someone to be cold and unfriendly. It's interesting to ponder the results of having only one here. Only extroversion causes someone to be willing to talk to almost anyone, but they're usually inconsiderate and rude. If you're not extroverted but agreeable like me, you try to be nice and get along with everyone, but you probably won't talk to someone unless they talk to you first.
    That's just like MBTI/Berens' E/I and Directing/Informing. E + A =Get Things Going; I + -A = Chart the Course; I + A = Behind the Scenes.

    What book is this?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  10. #20
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    What book is this?
    THIS BOOK. It's probably the best introduction book for the FFM that I know of. It's all about how it applies to the Workplace though since it's by an I/O psychologist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    And neuroticism has to do with how 'fast' one gets 'over stuff'? What exactly does that mean? And does this count anticipation?
    One time I was driving in the rain, and my car went sliding off the road. I swerved back on the road in a continuous motion, and I noticed I didn't hit anything. I concluded everything was fine. I was by the time I got to the next stop sign. Some girls I know would've been spazzing out, and buy the time we got to our destination would probably still be affected by it. They might possibly make reference to it. I would represent low neuroticism and the girl would represent high neuroticism.

    Right now you should be in a normal state. Elements of neuroticism involve how easy it is for your fight-or-flight response to start, and possibly how intensely it's activated. It also involves how long it takes for you to get back to a normal state like you should be in right now.

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