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  1. #1
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Default Standard learning pattern?

    If an INTP would do well to learn the positive aspects of ENTJ and ESFJ then does this form a standardised pattern in respect to the other types?

    I realise that ideally you learn a little of all the types but that's not as helpful for clear developmental mapping etc. Basically I'm looking for a template so for any type I can guess well if you are X then you need to learn more Y.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    You're suggesting two alternate "types" to use as templates, since together they'd cover the six remaining functions?

    So for ISFJ, you would have ISFP and ENTP? (for example?)

    Why those types in particular? Why not swap in INTJ for ENTJ? (same functions, just flipped pairs.) And so on?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You're suggesting two alternate "types" to use as templates, since together they'd cover the six remaining functions?

    So for ISFJ, you would have ISFP and ENTP? (for example?)

    Why those types in particular? Why not swap in INTJ for ENTJ? (same functions, just flipped pairs.) And so on?
    INTPs who learn ENTJ learn to actually action their ideas which gives them a sense of achievement and fulfiment. Oh and it reduces the bitching that everything is wrong but it's too hard to change.

    I'm actually quoting my father with the whole ENTJ and ESFJ. Apparently it works for INTPs I just wondered if it worked for other types in any kind of pattern. I never considered the functions...

    I'll go get Wildcat
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    INTPs who learn ENTJ learn to actually action their ideas which gives them a sense of achievement and fulfiment. Oh and it reduces the bitching that everything is wrong but it's too hard to change.
    Oh, I agree with that. One of my worst functions is Te... and that weakness is making my life very hard to manage. (Se would be useful as well, just to give my inner world time to recuperate... but that's my other worst function.)

    I'm actually quoting my father with the whole ENTJ and ESFJ. Apparently it works for INTPs I just wondered if it worked for other types in any kind of pattern. I never considered the functions...
    INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe

    ENTJ = Te + Ni + Se + Fi
    ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti

    So ENTJ + ESFJ covers all the bases for remaining functions.

    INTJ could be swapped for ENTJ (same functions, different order), as well as some other types (e.g., ESFP = Se + Fi + Te + Ni), but ENTJ has the elegance of having the functions in the same order as INTP, except they are all E/I flipped. So from the outside, ENTJ looks like someone who structures his OUTER world, using inner intuition to guide his actions... a sort of INTP turned inside-out.

    Anyway, I was figuring the same process could work for all the other types, if you wanted to do the equations.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I'm actually quoting my father with the whole ENTJ and ESFJ. Apparently it works for INTPs I just wondered if it worked for other types in any kind of pattern. I never considered the functions...
    *nods nods nods* I also believe that applies to all types... well different functions for specific types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe

    ENTJ = Te + Ni + Se + Fi
    ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti

    So ENTJ + ESFJ covers all the bases for remaining functions.

    INTJ could be swapped for ENTJ (same functions, different order), as well as some other types (e.g., ESFP = Se + Fi + Te + Ni), but ENTJ has the elegance of having the functions in the same order as INTP, except they are all E/I flipped. So from the outside, ENTJ looks like someone who structures his OUTER world, using inner intuition to guide his actions... a sort of INTP turned inside-out.
    Covering all bases... in other words, the best person to be is one that can effectively use all 8 functions. Since our inferior & shadow functions are the least developed... we are most likely to misuse them and thus we should work on being like our opposite types because these are their dominant functions.

    Question about function development... what to work on first? They say your inferior function will come to you in yours 40s etc... will it be overly taxing the actively work on it earlier? Should we even follow that crazy development pattern... say for INTP, Ti Ne Te Ni Se Si Fe Fi? Or is it better to apply everything together... that what do they call it? The zig-zag fashion?

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    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    No maths needed surely?

    1 is your preferance & 2 is the opposite.

    Your prefered type is 1111
    Learn from 2112 and 2222.

    That should work in all instances.

    The thing is does it?

    ISFJ = 1st base for learning of ESFP and then ENTP.

    Any ISFJs to test this out?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Question about function development... what to work on first? They say your inferior function will come to you in yours 40s etc... will it be overly taxing the actively work on it earlier? Should we even follow that crazy development pattern... say for INTP, Ti Ne Te Ni Se Si Fe Fi? Or is it better to apply everything together... that what do they call it? The zig-zag fashion?
    A very N answer for you but I'd say you should always do it in context.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Your preferred type is 1111
    Learn from 2112 and 2222.
    Yes, that's the pattern.

    ISFJ = 1st base for learning of ESFP and then ENTP.
    Any ISFJs to test this out?
    Well, I think one thing to be careful of as this is explored is that we don't fulfill our own created expectations. IOW, to test this, we not only need to see if this makes sense for ISFJ, but that other potential model types DON'T make as much sense or aren't as efficient.

    That being said, my wife has benefited a great deal from bonding with our ESFP son. (Ironically, she finds him the easiest one of our three for her to "understand" and relate to.)

    She is SiFe and he is SeFi. So in a way I think he fascinates her and lives vicariously through him, in a sense. And while she is trying to give him some structure (which SiFe is great for), she's learning to ease up, allow herself to live life, be in the flow, find her own inner values.

    Some of the best times I have had with my wife was when she stopped Fe'ing and just dropped into Se. (The times we went jet-skiing, for example; she is SO straight-laced, but out there on the lake, she switched into "in the moment" mode and was a real maniac.)

    Likewise, her Ne used to be very terrible, because she tends to see just what she wants to see... or fears she might see... rather than what is actually there. Learning to disengage from her Si (which says, "Here is what happened in the past, so it will likely continue to happen in the future") and choosing Ne ("Here is what could happen, based on what I see around me right now") is good for her.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning
    Question about function development... what to work on first? They say your inferior function will come to you in yours 40s etc... will it be overly taxing the actively work on it earlier?
    Yes, it is taxing... and potentially destructive.

    Why? Because if you are forced to develop it before your primary and secondary are developed, you basically get confused and learn to distrust your #1 & #2 functions.

    It's not a matter of not being able to develop Fe, then, for INTPs, at a younger age. It's that they shouldn't be developing it more than their Ti and Ne; they should get their main functions established first, THEN work on the others.

    I think this has been my experience. It throws everything out of whack... nor do you learn to develop Fe in the best possible way, it's likely to be distorted in some way. That's what I see in myself: Saying and doing the "right things" to preserve my social role/place, rather than following TiNe. Ne was more acceptable (caused less friction) than expressing Ti, which could be ruthless and very direct -- usually I just harbored Ti inside and didn't share it much with anyone.

    Should we even follow that crazy development pattern... say for INTP, Ti Ne Te Ni Se Si Fe Fi? Or is it better to apply everything together... that what do they call it? The zig-zag fashion?
    I don't know. I ended up developing my introverted functions first, and excluding my Te and Se pretty drastically, due to my bad childhood situation. I think this gave me some sensitivity and richness, but it also confused me because I ended up being of "two minds" (such as my Ti constantly being confused by Fi, and so forth).

    Realistically, I can see what the zigzag pattern is followed -- because Te is similar to Ti in how it evaluates things, it just does it externally. So Te is simply a servant of Ti -- something that helps Ti implement in the outer world -- but doesn't really get in its way as long as it realizes its position. Same thing with Ni -- it sort of acts as a way to balance and check conclusions made by the TiNe combo. If you developed Si first, its tendency is to "shoot down" ideas made by TiNe rather than guide them. And Fi muddies up Ti, weakening conclusions as well -- a big inner fight over "what makes sense" vs "what I value."

    This is speculation on my part and needs to be explored further, though. Just never thought about it before to this depth.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #9
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Fortunato,



    More later
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Right now my brain is once again working (some nice mice singing "We will fix it" came along and rewound the elastic band for me).

    INTP = Ti + Ne + Si + Fe
    ENTJ = Te + Ni + Se + Fi
    ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti

    We've covered this one. I'm including it just to note the pattern and for a sense of completeness (is that even a word?).

    ISFJ = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne
    ESFJ = Fe + Si + Ne + Ti
    ENTP = Ne + Ti + Fe + Si

    Now I'd say that ISFJs could do without the ENTP negative comments habit. Does the ESFJ characteristics help moderate the negative side of ENTP? I think so. Plus the ENTPs ability to pretty much snipe anything off the table should help the ISFJs confidence.

    Note - I'm not overly familiar with this dynamic yet. Perhaps you, Fortunato, will have more insight?

    INFP = Fi + Ne + Si + Te
    ENFJ = Fe + Ni + Se + Ti
    ESTJ = Te + Si + Ne + Fi

    I was speaking about this to my INFP friend last night. Basically if the INFP goes straight from placid and calming to sergeant major (ESTJ) then they are both flip flopping on the recipient, which is liable to make them hostile, and on themselves, most INFPs I've met do not like to be so abrasive and do not like it's effects on people. Hence if they learn a bit of ENFJ and become better able to communicate their emotions and feel more justified in asking for what they need then the move to organising people should not include so much passive agressive behaviour where they vent at others due to repressed feelings and unexpressed wants.

    I hope this makes sense.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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