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  1. #11
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    One I was considering last night when caught between two ESxPs!

    ESTP - Prone to being a ditz. Fairly random and disorganised but lots of energy and if focused can be very "switched on" people.
    ISTJ - A walking repository of information. Consider things before accepting them and are quite "plodding" in thought pattern. Step by step approach.
    INFJ - (I don't know much about these but I'd guess they're good judges and feel the connections. Help.)

    ESFP - Complete ditz!! Very here and now. If they got diagnosed with myopia then I'd very much expect them to be completely blind!
    ISFJ - Again not much known but presumably they are much slower to act, as ISTJ is versus ESTP.
    INTJ - Able to act competently with speed but it's more of a faster plodding than leaping to conclusions.

    Basically with both types it seems that step 1 is to get the subject to be able to slow down and focus. Once that is achieved then they can tackle thier more intuitive side which is usually only giving them paranoia and little hints which they then charge at like an irritated bull.

    The other point is that whilst they are developing their organisational skills and trying to get themselves to check each step of thier thinking, it is essential to both types to DO the task so they can understand it. Hence once they've developed thier intuition they move on to incorperating some traits from their intuitive shadow.

    Note the extremely harsh descriptions of ESxPs are supposed to represent a more polarised version of that type before they develop. Developes ESxPs are not necessarily anything like that. Hell one day I'll meet one that can do the same task the same way TWICE!!! (I'm such an optimist.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    One I was considering last night when caught between two ESxPs!

    ESTP - Prone to being a ditz. Fairly random and disorganised but lots of energy and if focused can be very "switched on" people.
    ISTJ - A walking repository of information. Consider things before accepting them and are quite "plodding" in thought pattern. Step by step approach.
    INFJ - (I don't know much about these but I'd guess they're good judges and feel the connections. Help.)
    ESTP = Se + Ti + Fe + Ni
    ISTJ = Si + Te + Fi + Ne
    INFJ = Ni + Fe + Ti + Se

    ESTPs tend to be good entrepeneurs. They schmooze well and actually have a good understanding of how the world itself works, so they can implement their ideas. Their ideas tend to be realistic and practical. (ESFPs tend to rely more on their ability to win people on an emotional level.) They are pragmatic, rubber-meets-road. I think Donald Trump is an ESTP type. (Probably the Comedian from "The Watchmen" as well.)

    Unfortunately, they often can go around without a real core and be disjointed in their approach. The Si + Te thing would give them some real structure and consistency, which they need if they are to be effective. it also helps them get more centered.

    The Ni probably expands their thinking -- they realize all the things they take for granted in the Se real world really have no internal meaning and can mean different things in different contexts. This allows them to step outside the conventional meaning of things and get a deeper understanding of their interactions with others. [Boy, I'm good at saying things that sound good but ultimately still don't clarify things, aren't I?]

    I've seen a rather shallow thinking/understanding of the significance of things from ESTPs -- they tend to brush off those things and take the situation at face value. The Ni gives them a better grip of reality, I think.


    ESFP - Complete ditz!! Very here and now. If they got diagnosed with myopia then I'd very much expect them to be completely blind!
    ISFJ - Again not much known but presumably they are much slower to act, as ISTJ is versus ESTP.
    INTJ - Able to act competently with speed but it's more of a faster plodding than leaping to conclusions.
    ESFP = Se + Fi + Te + Ni
    ISFJ = Si + Fe + Ti + Ne
    INTJ = Ni + Te + Fi + Se


    ESFPs tend to want to positively stir up people, create fun, and rely on their schmoozing ability to win people over, rather than a manipulation of the impersonal rules per se. But they also tend to be very subjective and make irrational and sometimes selfish decisions in terms of only their own feelings.

    They benefit from ISFJ's sense of an inner stable world (rather than outer chaos), as well as a sense of what behavior is appropriate in order to care for others as they would themselves -- their "good intentions" actually have a way to be made manifest, rather than just wishful thinking. They really need this; otherwise they are prone to seeing themselves as loving and sweet and kind, when really they are just destroying other people's lives and hurting their feelings. Te development REALLY helps them in regards to implementing their ideas, because their life is otherwise disorderly.

    I dunno. Just thoughts.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I dunno. Just thoughts.
    Sounds like it works though. I think this simple swapping of letters gives a real clear basic line of progression for any type. If not a comprehensive theory it's certainly accessible and clear as a base starter for ten.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Sounds like it works though. I think this simple swapping of letters gives a real clear basic line of progression for any type. If not a comprehensive theory it's certainly accessible and clear as a base starter for ten.
    Well, I have some hesitation, for the simple reason that similar cases can be made if you just pick any two types at random. You can probably find some "good" connection that could be made. (Try it and see if you can.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Ok let's go through this path thoroughly.

    INTP - INFP.
    Reputed as not good as the Fi confuses the Ti.

    ESTP - ESFP.
    Same thing.

    ENTJ - ENFJ.
    Yup the same again.

    Theory - Just changing T to F or F to T isn't particularly healthy as it then becomes difficult to use either effectively.

    So perhaps it's necessary to change two preferences to enact a significant enough change for it to be useful?

    Which two?

    INTP - ENFP. I'd imagine the whole trying to get people to like them would stress INTPs.

    INTP - ESTP. Whoa! That's like a more chaotic INTP. It'd be like skimming my brain across the surface.

    INTP - INFJ. Nah. Never be able to manage the whole deep connections without being developed first.


    So it looks like it does matter which preferences you switch.

    (You'll not I'm really scientific Feel free to be more precise.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #16
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Theory - Just changing T to F or F to T isn't particularly healthy as it then becomes difficult to use either effectively.

    So perhaps it's necessary to change two preferences to enact a significant enough change for it to be useful?
    Is it though? Sometimes little things can make a difference... I'm thinking in my case INFJ vs INTJ.

    INFJ - Ni Fe Ti Se
    INTJ - Ni Te Fi Se

    Fe takes into account for the opinions of other people, that there are always alternate ways of looking at things.
    Te views the world very systematically, that there is one ideal way of doing things.

    Instead of having my usual wishy-washy, try to please/take into account of everybody, stance... With Te, I could for once make a quick firm decision and be happy about it. People will probably respect my judgement more.

    INTP - ENFP. I'd imagine the whole trying to get people to like them would stress INTPs.

    INTP - ESTP. Whoa! That's like a more chaotic INTP. It'd be like skimming my brain across the surface.

    INTP - INFJ. Nah. Never be able to manage the whole deep connections without being developed first.
    I think in the end, all functions have their uses... so it doesn't really matter which type you try to emulate.

  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Is it though? Sometimes little things can make a difference... I'm thinking in my case INFJ vs INTJ.

    INFJ - Ni Fe Ti Se
    INTJ - Ni Te Fi Se

    Fe takes into account for the opinions of other people, that there are always alternate ways of looking at things.
    Te views the world very systematically, that there is one ideal way of doing things.

    Instead of having my usual wishy-washy, try to please/take into account of everybody, stance... With Te, I could for once make a quick firm decision and be happy about it. People will probably respect my judgement more.
    The important thing would be though that the whole efficiency drive would be a killer to learn.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I think in the end, all functions have their uses... so it doesn't really matter which type you try to emulate.
    That much is true but try teaching INTJ to ESTP. It doesn't really work.

    Try teaching it to an ESFP and they can see the advantages but can't do it until they can figure it out. ISFJ helps them "key" into the practice of their shadow. It's the introductory lessons, if you will.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Is it though? Sometimes little things can make a difference... I'm thinking in my case INFJ vs INTJ.

    INFJ - Ni Fe Ti Se
    INTJ - Ni Te Fi Se

    Fe takes into account for the opinions of other people, that there are always alternate ways of looking at things.
    Meh.... NiFe does that because Ni "deconstructs" behaviors and signs in order to get outside of them and see what biases were involved in them, thus understanding reality better. SiFe respects other POVs in order to preserve the peace but usually the Si has entrenched a very particular "right way" of doing things, even if the SiFe person has developed the ability to treat others well and keep their thoughts to themselves.

    (SiFe is actually more entrenched than FeSi, because the Fe dominant person is taking as a standard whatever is currently predominate to express a particular commitment -- it derives its rules from the environment -- whereas SiFe grounds the standard internally early on and is reluctant to budge even when the rest of the world changes.)

    Te views the world very systematically, that there is one ideal way of doing things.
    I don't know about that either. The key more is that, simply, some sort of sensible decision is being made... not necessarily that it's the best per se. "Best" could change depending on circumstance.

    Instead of having my usual wishy-washy, try to please/take into account of everybody, stance...
    I guess this is more behavior, versus motivation. Do you actually have an instinctive "answer" to the situation inside... but outwardly you still find yourself trying to keep everyone happy?

    I think in the end, all functions have their uses...
    Definitely agree with that!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The important thing would be though that the whole efficiency drive would be a killer to learn.
    ...
    Try teaching it to an ESFP and they can see the advantages but can't do it until they can figure it out. ISFJ helps them "key" into the practice of their shadow. It's the introductory lessons, if you will.
    The main problem here isn't that the skill isn't useful, but whether we are able to learn it. A killer to learn doesn't mean it's not possible! I go by what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. hehe

    I think the trick here isn't to force yourself to be something you're not. Rather to try working on it a little bit at a time. Isolate the functions a little bit... For example I know my Ni works even if my brain's half dead... so all I need to do is suppress Fe, and bring Te out to play. Easier said then done? Maybe, maybe not. I see it as reflection of Ti outwards... ie this is the logical option to take... in my mind, I run through the possible outcomes of various actions. Fe would like to expand into how these outcomes will affect other people. So in this case, I deliberately tune those down. What's the best outcome for myself that would sit okay with other people. Then just do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Meh.... NiFe does that because Ni "deconstructs" behaviors and signs in order to get outside of them and see what biases were involved in them, thus understanding reality better. SiFe respects other POVs in order to preserve the peace but usually the Si has entrenched a very particular "right way" of doing things, even if the SiFe person has developed the ability to treat others well and keep their thoughts to themselves.

    (SiFe is actually more entrenched than FeSi, because the Fe dominant person is taking as a standard whatever is currently predominate to express a particular commitment -- it derives its rules from the environment -- whereas SiFe grounds the standard internally early on and is reluctant to budge even when the rest of the world changes.)
    *blinks* True... I'm going off into NiFe world. Here is a case of function interaction of NiFe rather than pure Fe... The ISFJs I know don't like to budge from their current view of the world at all. To them... Si is Si, it doesn't quite allow as much change to their internal believes as Ni. For them to accept something new means giving up their complete internal system, while for me... it's merely taking into account of an alternate way of perceiving the same truth. What you said about FeSi makes sense... what about FeNi? Taking people into account first before making connections in the mind. It would be extremely difficult for them to switch off Fe and stand up for themselves... x-X Well difficult but doable... same thing as me trying to be more like an ISFJ...

    I don't know about that either. The key more is that, simply, some sort of sensible decision is being made... not necessarily that it's the best per se. "Best" could change depending on circumstance.
    I guess this is more behavior, versus motivation. Do you actually have an instinctive "answer" to the situation inside... but outwardly you still find yourself trying to keep everyone happy?
    Sensible is what I meant. Bounded rationality... (I like that term). Given that set of information, what's the best solution you can come up with that maximize gain? For in trying to please everybody, you get nowhere.

    It's a case of balancing motivations... on one hand, I want to do something for myself (action A that benefits me the most), on the other, I care about how my action will affect other people (action B that will make other people happy). In my mind, I do know the answer... can see what will happen if I take either route. The question is which one do I take? Fe wants me to take B... Ti wants me to take A... but B will always be selected unless I invert that Ti decision to action... aka Ti->Te.

    I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly. Words just aren't coming to me very well.

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    *blinks*
    Sorry... I know I sort of veered a little off the conversation track.

    True... I'm going off into NiFe world. Here is a case of function interaction of NiFe rather than pure Fe... The ISFJs I know don't like to budge from their current view of the world at all. To them... Si is Si, it doesn't quite allow as much change to their internal believes as Ni. For them to accept something new means giving up their complete internal system, while for me... it's merely taking into account of an alternate way of perceiving the same truth. What you said about FeSi makes sense... what about FeNi? Taking people into account first before making connections in the mind. It would be extremely difficult for them to switch off Fe and stand up for themselves... x-X Well difficult but doable... same thing as me trying to be more like an ISFJ...
    FeNi (the ENFJ type)... What I see in them is a sense of people and how to nurture/teach them (they do it instinctively... mentor, basically), and they use their Ni sense to cut through all the b.s. that people smokescreen themselves with, seeing things from all angles and not just what the person would HAVE them see or think about them, and they use that wisdom to tailor their interaction. The FeSi (ESFJ) uses past experience and the internalized landscape to make this judgment of "what is best for someone." Unfortunately, this might not be best for the person in question if the ESFJ has misread the situation or if the target has been promoting "false/slanted" information, misrepresenting themselves (purposefully or not).

    Most ENFJs do have a hard time standing up for themselves; on the other hand, most do not seem to be as bothered or find that necessary, they seem to be happy to "mentor." my guess is that introverts are much more likely to feel put upon and be searching for their elusive "self."

    Sensible is what I meant. Bounded rationality... (I like that term). Given that set of information, what's the best solution you can come up with that maximize gain? For in trying to please everybody, you get nowhere.
    Ah, yes! "Sensible" is a great word -- IxFJ types are very sensible when it comes to people and things. An ISFJ is more apt to be sensible with concrete matters but in regards to relationships/expectations of others get a little get caught up in doing "what is right", while I think an INFJ is much more aware of what is most sensible based on the current situation.

    I don't know if I'm explaining this correctly. Words just aren't coming to me very well.
    No, I think I got it. the word "sensible" to sum everything up was a great choice.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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