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  1. #71
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    INTJ and ENTP, both NTFSs, but quite different- of the two, the INTJ is an aged Cab while the ENTP is a young Merlot. To explain, since you don't go around drinking wines on a daily basis, the INTJs dominant function is introverted- you won't quite catch the structure in the wine straight off because it's not the first thing that catches your attention, you'll get the tobacco and green pepper notes before you get the almost vanilla-ish oak notes in the background, which lend the wine it's structure. However, with a young Merlot it's structure is the first thing you notice- the tannins reach right out of the glass and grab your tongue. The leading function is more obvious because it's reflected outward.
    Does everything you say boil down to drinking or sex?

  2. #72
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    Does everything you say boil down to drinking or sex?
    we speak of what we know

    ... and sometimes I talk about society or politics!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  3. #73
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    we speak of what we know

    ... and sometimes I talk about society or politics!
    which both boil down to sex...

  4. #74
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    which both boil down to sex...
    see... the topic can't be avoided!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #75
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    Very interesting point. Now I'll have to check my function tests. I do rememer I have FI+Fe very high both.... *checking the function order test results*

    The result of the function order test for me is: Ne Fi Fe Ni Se Ti Te Si
    and counting the procentages together I'm FNST. But when checking out my stronges function that I'm very strong it's Ne. And my Fi is much stronger than Fe so I say I'm more ENFP than ENFJ even if I'm probably ENFp.
    I took the test twice, almost one year apart.
    Both times they said I was an INTP, which is ridiculous,
    but here are the results:

    introverted Thinking (Ti) (46.6)
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) (40.1)
    introverted Feeling (Fi) (36.9)
    introverted Sensing (Si) (33.8)
    Notice how all the introverted functions are first.
    extraverted Thinking (Te) (27.6)
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) (26.4)
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) (17.3)
    extraverted Sensing (Se) (11.1)


    introverted Thinking (Ti) (46.4)
    introverted Feeling (Fi) (45.2)
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) (40.1)
    extraverted Thinking (Te) (29.4)
    introverted Sensing (Si) (27.3)
    Te and Si switched places, but not by much.
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) (26.4)
    extraverted Sensing (Se) (13.2)
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) (12)


    The test doesn't have any credibility with me, but I thought it would be a curiosity to see how close the e/i siblings were.
    They are not close.

  6. #76
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evan View Post
    I agree with you. But I'm interested: why do you think Fi and Te complement each other?



    (When you say fragile, don't you mean "externally fragile"?)
    I was ill in the 80s. I was confined to bed for a long time.
    To pass the time I began to explore things that interested me.
    The mechanics of dichotomy was the top of the line.

    I did not find the palindrome numbers, or the fractal math.
    I thought I did.
    Later I found out these things were found before me. I was not dissappointed.
    It only proved I was in the right.

    It happens the MBTI as a system can not ignore the basic laws of a dichotomy.
    Dichotomy is one process only. The complementary number is exclusive.
    It is as you say.

    Why Te is the complementary partner of Fi?
    Te is discussed in my thread: ESTJ.

    Dichotomy is about basic math.
    Basicness is all there is.
    The rest is pure derivation?

    No.
    Derivation is not a subsequence.
    Dichotomy is one process.
    Direction is not an arrow.
    Point is counter point.

    Inclusion is divided.
    Exclusion is not.

  7. #77
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Okay to get back to the core of the thread and possibly to redo my original explanation...

    If you take Ti then you have T (the what) and i (the where).
    There is no difference between the thinking process involved in Ti and Te. If there was then there would be an innate difference in the process applied.

    Of course there are differences between people that prefer Te to those who prefer Ti there is a difference between those who prefer extraversion over those who prefer introversion, the argument is are there differences in the processes applied?

    Personally I find that ALL NTs seem to use the same processes. What they apply it to does differ and their own personal accumulation of experiences and skills.

    What I am specifically arguing against, as edcoaching points out correctly, is the theory that people seem to use where they see both the what and the where as a what. In other words I disagree that Ti and Te are two separate entities. I disagree because I don't think they are entities themselves but rather one singular entity with a side note upon where the subject prefers to apply that entity.

    In summation, if what is represented by W and where is represented by w then ALL the so called eight functions are represented as Ww. The thing is that most people only see a What and not the where. I consider this an error and hope that somehow all of this may get them to challenge their conception.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #78
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay to get back to the core of the thread and possibly to redo my original explanation...

    If you take Ti then you have T (the what) and i (the where).
    There is no difference between the thinking process involved in Ti and Te. If there was then there would be an innate difference in the process applied.

    Of course there are differences between people that prefer Te to those who prefer Ti there is a difference between those who prefer extraversion over those who prefer introversion, the argument is are there differences in the processes applied?

    Personally I find that ALL NTs seem to use the same processes. What they apply it to does differ and their own personal accumulation of experiences and skills.

    What I am specifically arguing against, as edcoaching points out correctly, is the theory that people seem to use where they see both the what and the where as a what. In other words I disagree that Ti and Te are two separate entities. I disagree because I don't think they are entities themselves but rather one singular entity with a side note upon where the subject prefers to apply that entity.

    In summation, if what is represented by W and where is represented by w then ALL the so called eight functions are represented as Ww. The thing is that most people only see a What and not the where. I consider this an error and hope that somehow all of this may get them to challenge their conception.
    Who said that they were two separate entities?

  9. #79
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Xander this may be the easiest way to resolve this matter for anyone. First decide which theory you're comfortable with. Second which is the main reason for disputes, is realize and appreciate the systems do not correlate. If you are going to argue Ti/Te then you are arguing Jung so I would think the principles of Jung would need to be followed. If you are going to argue the theory of the Tiegers then argue it on that basis. You're attempting as most, to debate apples and oranges by using lingo from two systems. Ti is different from Te based on Jung. Thinking in general based on the Tiegers may not be so apparent. In fact (and again without going back through "Gifts Differing" to see if she originated the term TNSF) I don't recall the Tiegers ever referring to cognitive functions.

  10. #80
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Xander this may be the easiest way to resolve this matter for anyone. First decide which theory you're comfortable with. Second which is the main reason for disputes, is realize and appreciate the systems do not correlate. If you are going to argue Ti/Te then you are arguing Jung so I would think the principles of Jung would need to be followed. If you are going to argue the theory of the Tiegers then argue it on that basis. You're attempting as most, to debate apples and oranges by using lingo from two systems. Ti is different from Te based on Jung. Thinking in general based on the Tiegers may not be so apparent. In fact (and again without going back through "Gifts Differing" to see if she originated the term TNSF) I don't recall the Tiegers ever referring to cognitive functions.
    I think they do, but not in so many words.
    They don't get into the nitty-gritty of it, but sort of simplify the application, so novices can understand it, which is the main audience of their book.
    For instance, in Do What You Are, chapter six basically discusses the dominant and auxiliary functions. In the section called Personality Typograms" they represent the fact that an INTP uses introverted Thinking, and extravert iNuition.

    Interestingly, and Xander might appreciate this, concerning career satisfaction they say: "To achieve maximum satisfaction and effectiveness, you need to use your dominant function in your favorite world." ("world" meaning inner/introverted world, or outer/extraverted world.)

    This seems to corroborate, as Xander has said, that Te and Ti are not two separate entities but rather, the same entity being applied in different places.

    Imo, that doesn't change the fact that Ti and Te look different from each other, and people have noticed that and made attempts at describing it.

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