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  1. #41
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Even if these things can't be proven in any real sense at this point in time, it should be possible to derive criteria which could prove/disprove each scenario.
    Okay, I'm open to that idea. How should we go about deriving such criteria?

  2. #42
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    The intresting thing with socionics actually is: my cognitiveprocesses result does make sense:

    extraverted Sensing (Se) ******************************** (32.4)
    good use
    introverted Sensing (Si) ************ (12.7)
    unused
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) *********************************** (35.8)
    good use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) *********************************** (35.1)
    good use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) *********************************** (35)
    good use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) **************************************** (40.4)
    excellent use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) *********************** (23.8)
    limited use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) ************************ (24.8)
    average use

    ---------

    Though I scored high on Ni and Te and according to socionics they do fall into the last 7th and 8th functions, socionics says also that they are more like to be a mirror image of the leading and creative function, so the 1st and 2nd. Therefore it does not exclude the fact that someone is not adept in them, it even says moreso that someone is to take the 7th and 8th function less serious in people and does make fun out of it, if he can .

    And to do so, you have to be good at it, do I make sense ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #43
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Okay, I'm open to that idea. How should we go about deriving such criteria?
    I was hoping you would tell me .
    I'm going to have to procrastinate on that a while.

    Initial thoughts, for T functions. One needs to be able to define in specific terms how Ti and Te manifest themselves. Then it should be possible to test whether people who excel in Ti also excel in Te (not by asking them about preferences but by testing their cognitive skills). If it is all just Thinking applied to different contexts, then there shouldn't be much difference between the two results. If there is significant disparity, then this suggests that different cognitive processes are at work. Localising them in the brain can already be done (crudely) with PET scanning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #44
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    INTJ = Te Ni Se Fi = TNSF
    INTJ -> NiTeFiSe

    Also, Ni before Te i.e. N before T (with INTJs) and not the opposite i.e. Ti before Ne. T before N (with INTPs) is very obvious once one notices it, but the difference is very subtle. I'm relieved to have discovered this.
    Last edited by Kaizer; 11-27-2008 at 01:29 PM. Reason: read the subsequent post by Xander
    The answer must be in the attempt
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  5. #45
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    do I make sense ?
    Rarely but I think I catch your drift.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Initial thoughts, for T functions. One needs to be able to define in specific terms how Ti and Te manifest themselves. Then it should be possible to test whether people who excel in Ti also excel in Te (not by asking them about preferences but by testing their cognitive skills). If it is all just Thinking applied to different contexts, then there shouldn't be much difference between the two results. If there is significant disparity, then this suggests that different cognitive processes are at work. Localising them in the brain can already be done (crudely) with PET scanning.
    Can you be good at Ti AND be terrible at Te? Extremely unlikely. It's T, it's all T. The e or i are just WHERE you prefer to employ the T.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
    INTJ -> NiTeFiSe
    Okay smartass I noted the mistake earlier
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizer View Post
    Also, Ni before Te i.e. N before T (with INTJs) and not the opposite i.e. Ti before Ne. T before N (with INTPs) is very obvious once one notices it, but the difference is very subtle. I'm relieved to have discovered this.
    Ti as primary is VERY noticable once you consider the HUGE delay between a question being asked and an INTP doing something about reaching a conclusion. Before we'll even consider going out and finding stuff out we have to pontificate about where we're going to look. We stoically refuse to just "meander about" looking in random places...
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #46
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Can you be good at Ti AND be terrible at Te? Extremely unlikely. It's T, it's all T. The e or i are just WHERE you prefer to employ the T.
    I was just attempting to come up with ways to explore the validity of the concepts. Currently, competing theories are merely hypothetical as Athenian has said. As such they are hardly worth debating. You can't prove Ti doesn't exist, I can't prove it does (although there is some evidence to suggest that it is a distinct neurological process), without going through the more rigorous process I have hinted at.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #47
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Is it not true that Ti and Te are both T?

    If I gave this as the standard format Uc
    fUnction and context.

    Ergo Ti is T with a preference for applying it introvertedly and so on.

    Is it not therefore true that an INTPs function order is TNSF?

    Would I be correct in saying that there are only four functions listed in a types function order because of what it is describing, it does not require the other four?

    Surely if the order is describing the order of preference for the four "functions" (as outlined above not in the normal subdivided Ti and Te sense) and making note of where the subject prefers to apply the function then noting the order of preference in which they use functions in a context they don't prefer is redundant.

    OR am I barking up the wrong tree?
    That kind of a marker does say a thing, yes. A promising note.


    Take the cognitive processes test.
    Or if you remember it you do not need to take it.

    Ti + Te =
    Ni + Ne =

    Which is higher?

    If Ti + Te is a way higher than Ni + Ne, then you are a TNSF.
    Right handed.

    I am NTFS. Left handed.

    Our culture is right handed, unfortunately, so it does not mean every NTFS is left handed. Only the headstrong.

    A good marker, Xander. In the correct application useful.
    Congrats.

    Now it is time for the morning news (exciting things about Obama ) and for the morning

  8. #48
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    That kind of a marker does say a thing, yes. A promising note.


    Take the cognitive processes test.
    Or if you remember it you do not need to take it.

    Ti + Te =
    Ni + Ne =

    Which is higher?

    If Ti + Te is a way higher than Ni + Ne, then you are a TNSF.
    Right handed.

    I am NTFS. Left handed.

    Our culture is right handed, unfortunately, so it does not mean every NTFS is left handed. Only the headstrong.

    A good marker, Xander. In the correct application useful.
    Congrats.

    Now it is time for the morning news (exciting things about Obama ) and for the morning
    Very interesting point. Now I'll have to check my function tests. I do rememer I have FI+Fe very high both.... *checking the function order test results*

    The result of the function order test for me is: Ne Fi Fe Ni Se Ti Te Si
    and counting the procentages together I'm FNST. But when checking out my stronges function that I'm very strong it's Ne. And my Fi is much stronger than Fe so I say I'm more ENFP than ENFJ even if I'm probably ENFp.

  9. #49
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay smartass I noted the mistake earlier
    Yes I noticed that & hence the edit note : "Last edited by Kaizer; Yesterday at 06:29 PM. Reason: read the subsequent post by Xander"
    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Ti as primary is VERY noticable once you consider the HUGE delay between a question being asked and an INTP doing something about reaching a conclusion. Before we'll even consider going out and finding stuff out we have to pontificate about where we're going to look. We stoically refuse to just "meander about" looking in random places...
    Yes agreed. I've experienced this J outlook & course of action etc . but it wasn't till I understood the leading func difference that the Ti v/s Ni difference explained it. I see it as passing judgment based on lil or no info and then backing it up with T (in INTJs) and so judgment is instant, and even though the judgment might be open to scrutiny, the buttressing by T that follows makes the lack of precision and the reaction seem like intransigence etc. So I guess what I'm, trying to say is that even though the Flack func sys makes sense in a certain way, and what you've said does cut some ice, but that this seemingly not so visible diff b/w the two INTs i.e. Js and Ps, seems to be a fundamental and so subtle a difference that it'd be hard to spot and explain interaction with the help of it had it not been this function order and the orientation of each.
    The answer must be in the attempt
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  10. #50
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    Very interesting point. Now I'll have to check my function tests. I do rememer I have FI+Fe very high both.... *checking the function order test results*

    The result of the function order test for me is: Ne Fi Fe Ni Se Ti Te Si
    and counting the procentages together I'm FNST. But when checking out my stronges function that I'm very strong it's Ne. And my Fi is much stronger than Fe so I say I'm more ENFP than ENFJ even if I'm probably ENFp.
    I say a perfect equilibrium.
    Beautiful.
    Thank you, alcea rosea.

    Your dominant hemisphere is the right one.
    Very much so.

    But you are not left handed, are you?

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