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  1. #121
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    I am not sure what you were going to ask since your whole argument is that you do not believe in cognitive functions. Clearly you have your connotation of what thinking is which is not what Jung describes, therefore not what MBTI or the enthusiasts of both theories are considering. Give us your connotation of what you describe as thinking which you believe would encompass both Ti and Te.
    We two are too divergent to find any meaningful ground within this thread. Neither can follow the others thinking. I think it's best left there.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #122
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Okay I'll attempt to remove all variables here and see where we get to.

    Ne Ti and Ni Te (in both orders)

    INTP - Pulls in information from the immediate context. Builds internal logical framework of information. Not likely to offer judgements of "things". Internal judgement, external information.

    ENTP - More likely to seek external information due to the overall preference for extraversion, still building an internal framework of logic.

    ENTJ - More likely to offer judgements, less likely to be working on the immediate information. External judging, internal information.

    INTJ - A better resolution on the internal information but less likely to offer external judgement due to the overall preference for introversion.

    All four use thinking as per the standard definition including logic, analysis, principles over values etc etc.

    The thinking involved is the same for all four (and in fact for the sensor versions though it looks very different due to the information used to form the judgements).

    Is there any difference between the four types here listed in terms of their thinking? No. The process remains the same. It is only where it is applied. Hence an INTJ may well agree with an INTP thinking but may disagree, most commonly, with either how they have applied their principles or about the information used (the context). I've noted that most times T type will NOT disagree with the application of logic or analysis or other similar techniques only about the skill with which they are used or how it has been applied. This leads me to the concept that all thinking is the same (hence how they are all Ts).

    The main thing I'm trying (and failing miserablly it would seem) is to investigate whether it is a mistake or not to try and work under the assumption that there's some core difference between Ti and Te. I find that there is no difference between the T part of those notations and therefore conclude that any and all differences found are due not to a difference in T but in other elements, primarily whether the person prefers to apply their judgements externally or internally.

    One pattern I noted to an INTJ was that those who use Te seem to expect the world to work according to logic and become frustrated when it does not but fail to recognise that they themselves do not expect themselves to be as logical. I find the reverse is true of those who prefer Ti. I do not find any evidence of the logic or "thinking" applied to be any different in either case.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #123
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Thank you , Eric B, that was an awesome post!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    ...
    Ti is really about the internal ordering of thoughts into logical structures, models and frameworks, rather than understanding all external models and frameworks instantly. It's because of the fact that an external system can be mapped to an internal framework that would make the person likely to gain a good grasp of the system. But it is also said that if the person does not have a particular internal framework that he can map the system to, he will be very slow to "get" it! This was pointed out by H&H, (the person seemed like they had a learning disability, but he just needed time for his Ti to do its grasp things) and then it finally clicked. His main method of judgment is still internal logic; he just doesn't have a model for that particular system.
    This beautifully explains why when I am trying to understand a complex system, I need it to be explained 3 times. I must be trying to understand it on an Ni framework.


    ... It was like the two attitudes of Feeling were totally different animals! ... then, I remembered how FP's are generally portrayed as "empathetic" as the FJ's, and began realizing that they weren't as different as the impression I was given.

    They both are driving the same F "values" car; only one's values are externally based, and the other's is internally based. Someone using an internal standard will generally try to align with the values of a group he is in, unless a personal value is violated. Then, rather than imposing himself, he will try to withdraw.
    ...
    This describes my tertiary F[i] perfectly.

  4. #124
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Okay I'll attempt to remove all variables here and see where we get to.

    Ne Ti and Ni Te (in both orders)



    ENTP - More likely to seek external information due to the overall preference for extraversion, still building an internal framework of logic.

    ENTJ - More likely to offer judgements, less likely to be working on the immediate information. External judging, internal information.

    INTJ - A better resolution on the internal information but less likely to offer external judgement due to the overall preference for introversion.

    All four use thinking as per the standard definition including logic, analysis, principles over values etc etc.

    The thinking involved is the same for all four (and in fact for the sensor versions though it looks very different due to the information used to form the judgements).

    Is there any difference between the four types here listed in terms of their thinking? No. The process remains the same. It is only where it is applied. Hence an INTJ may well agree with an INTP thinking but may disagree, most commonly, with either how they have applied their principles or about the information used (the context). I've noted that most times T type will NOT disagree with the application of logic or analysis or other similar techniques only about the skill with which they are used or how it has been applied. This leads me to the concept that all thinking is the same (hence how they are all Ts).

    The main thing I'm trying (and failing miserablly it would seem) is to investigate whether it is a mistake or not to try and work under the assumption that there's some core difference between Ti and Te. I find that there is no difference between the T part of those notations and therefore conclude that any and all differences found are due not to a difference in T but in other elements, primarily whether the person prefers to apply their judgements externally or internally.

    One pattern I noted to an INTJ was that those who use Te seem to expect the world to work according to logic and become frustrated when it does not but fail to recognise that they themselves do not expect themselves to be as logical. I find the reverse is true of those who prefer Ti. I do not find any evidence of the logic or "thinking" applied to be any different in either case.
    Maybe the thinking APPLIED isn't different, but the OUTCOME is,
    and I think that's what the notation is for.
    Wouldn't you agree?

    Even you yourself have described how T applied in an extraverted way has a different effect than T applied in an intraverted way.

    I may be missing something but it seems to me that to one person "T" is enough information,
    but another person wants to differentiate "Te" and "Ti".
    Both seem correct to me.
    Both people understand "INTP - .... Internal judgment, external information."

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Both people understand "INTP - .... Internal judgment, external information."
    That's equally true for every type, if you want to get ridiculously technical, and I know we all do.

  6. #126
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    That's equally true for every type, if you want to get ridiculously technical, and I know we all do.
    I don't understand what you were trying to say.
    Were you saying that all people make internal judgments and externalize information?
    Tee-hee You're right.

    But I was just quoting Xander's post right there.

  7. #127
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    All four use thinking as per the standard definition including logic, analysis, principles over values etc etc.

    The thinking involved is the same for all four (and in fact for the sensor versions though it looks very different due to the information used to form the judgements).

    Is there any difference between the four types here listed in terms of their thinking? No. The process remains the same. It is only where it is applied. Hence an INTJ may well agree with an INTP thinking but may disagree, most commonly, with either how they have applied their principles or about the information used (the context). I've noted that most times T type will NOT disagree with the application of logic or analysis or other similar techniques only about the skill with which they are used or how it has been applied. This leads me to the concept that all thinking is the same (hence how they are all Ts).

    The main thing I'm trying (and failing miserablly it would seem) is to investigate whether it is a mistake or not to try and work under the assumption that there's some core difference between Ti and Te. I find that there is no difference between the T part of those notations and therefore conclude that any and all differences found are due not to a difference in T but in other elements, primarily whether the person prefers to apply their judgements externally or internally.
    Te and Ti are not tangible items that really have core differences. They are processes (actions, basically), and the core difference would lie in the different people preferring one or the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Thank you , Eric B, that was an awesome post!

    This beautifully explains why when I am trying to understand a complex system, I need it to be explained 3 times. I must be trying to understand it on an Ni framework.
    Your Welcome :-)
    Frameworks are usually associated with Ti. Ni is perception. Ti is more about arranging frameworks than perceiving them. However, I guess because it's introverted, there might be a similar dynamic. (Like Fi would be about ethical frameworks, and I guess Si would be about experiential frameworks).
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    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  8. #128
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Te and Ti are not tangible items that really have core differences. They are processes (actions, basically), and the core difference would lie in the different people preferring one or the other.

    Your Welcome :-)
    Frameworks are usually associated with Ti. Ni is perception. Ti is more about arranging frameworks than perceiving them. However, I guess because it's introverted, there might be a similar dynamic. (Like Fi would be about ethical frameworks, and I guess Si would be about experiential frameworks).
    I daresay I think so.
    I mean, that's what I understood about myself as you were describing Ti.
    I don't have a Ti framework to work with when learning something new.
    I have to lay it onto my Ni framework, which for me personally is built of principles that don't change.

    Perception might be a misleading way to understand Ni.
    Granted, Ni is the most difficult introverted function to describe, in my opinion.

    If you mean experiential as in sensory, then I would agree.

  9. #129
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Would it be agreed that if someone were to say that a person was either an INTJ or an ENTJ because they used Te that this would be wrong? If Te and Ti do not exist except as concepts to explain the different results of two T preference people then how can you work backwards with any reliability?

    You see I don't have a problem with the function order as listed in most text books per se only the way in which people pick it up and use it literally. In strictest definition is Te a function? Is it not that T is the function and e the preferred arena to use it in? Ergo function analysis should not be based upon Fe and Fi but rather F itself as a whole. The various arenas should be a layer of analysis on top of that and not beside.

    It's a question of priority and importance. It seems that many consider the context as part of the function itself, it is this which I find incorrect and it's this tendency which I'm trying to address.

    It would be incorrect to assume that I'm trying to alter the system as it is, or as I interpret it to be (to be precisely precise), but rather how it is interpreted by a few people.

    Also in part I'm trying to find out if my thinking is correct but that's an aside to this particular thread as if I try to do both I'll only get buried in nay sayers and that's just irritating.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #130
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    No, you can't type someone based just on seeing them use a function. We all use all functions, and type is determined by preference of the functions. Then there are the words "function" and "process", which are often used interchangeably. Perhaps one can refer to the neutral T, F, S or N, and the other refer to the specific attitude. I have not seen a consistent rule followed on that.
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