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  1. #1
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Default Describe Si more clearly

    We've had a lot of discussion about what the Sensing factor is (S vs. N), but we haven't had much discussion at all about the specific Si function (Introverted Sensing). We often hear that it is "memory of details" or something similar. But we all remember details, don't we? So I hope to explore this in more depth.

    Here is basically the only mention of Si I found after searching these boards:
    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching
    Linda Berens of 16types.com wrote in v30 n3 (2007) issue of the Bulletin of Psychological Type, quoted an Anglican minister in Australia, ISTJ, describing her experience of Si..."She really resonated with a book she had read about a whale making a deep dive, being pulled to explore the depths of what he had know was there and how it was like coming home. She said she was taking a risk to describe this to the class as she rarely talked about this deep knowing that is so hard to explain...sense of deep knowing is a universal knowing of how things have always been. When you perceive that, what a sense of certainty you have about the natural order of things, the sequence and, of course, what needs to be done next!...This is so much more than perception by way of the five senses."

    She showed the article to Bob McAlpine of Type Resources, an ISTJ with decades of type experience. He replied, "One thing that is becoming clearer to me regarding Introverted Sensing is the emotional energy surrounding it (and all other introverted functions). What I am discerning regarding personal introverted Sensing is the more emotional the experinece is, the more vivid the image and the more difficult it is to acknowledge or accept another perspective. Universal introverted Sensing comes from such a deep place until it is extremely difficult for me to separate it form introverted Intuition. However, with introverted Sensing, there is a feeling of having been there before, as in the movie Patton when George C. Scott says, "Rommel, we have met here before." With introverted Intuition, I get no sense of having been there before."
    Apparently, Si is my strongest function, and I'm not even sure when I'm using it.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 11-24-2008 at 08:00 AM. Reason: bold for easy notice
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  2. #2
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    After learning about the functions a bit the last few weeks, I've been paying more attention to my own thoughts to try to tell if they correlated with a function. If Si is my dominant, then some examples of when I think I might be using it:

    When my mind isn't actively processing something, and I let it wander where it wants, I'll start replaying recent events in my head. After I have a conversation with someone, I replay so much of what each of us said over and over. It's not like I'm intentionally looking for something specific, it's just...happening.

    Honestly, I can remember events so clearly, it's like I can go back to them in my mind. I wish it were word for word, but I visualize memories with such detail. I still remember the inside of the school I went to first grade for. I can picture the classroom. I can picture myself sitting in front of the teacher reading stories.

    Is Si really about automatically knowing how things "were"? That's sort of odd, though. Are people with Si dominant most likely to often experience deja vu?

  3. #3
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz1337 View Post
    When my mind isn't actively processing something, and I let it wander where it wants, I'll start replaying recent events in my head. After I have a conversation with someone, I replay so much of what each of us said over and over. It's not like I'm intentionally looking for something specific, it's just...happening.

    Honestly, I can remember events so clearly, it's like I can go back to them in my mind. I wish it were word for word, but I visualize memories with such detail. I still remember the inside of the school I went to first grade for. I can picture the classroom. I can picture myself sitting in front of the teacher reading stories.
    Okay, that's a good point, and it's something I've heard attributed to Si on this board before, now that you mention it. I can pretty much relate to what you're saying here.

    Considering that Se is feeling (not emotional) things on the outside, Si should be feeling things on the inside. My guess is notions like "Something doesn't feel right about this...has someone readjusted this seat?" or "This place looks familiar...it feels like the last time I went there" may be Si. (And this may lead to what you're talking about regarding "deja vu".)

    Notice it is different from Se, because you don't feel that way from touching or seeing, it just leaves a feeling on the inside.

    Notice also that it's different from Ni, because it's not really about conceptual connections. They both act like a kind of "gut feeling", though, I guess.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 11-24-2008 at 08:46 AM. Reason: contrasts
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    As an aside, I was reading Thomson last night and again took into account the difference between ESJ and ISJ.

    ESJ (which focuses on the external judging process and just uses Si to store things for reference by Je) trusts its judging process and will accommodate shifts in the external world. ESJ understands and accepts that the world does change (just as INTPs accept that information changes and trusts the INTERNAL judging process to make sense of it), so change is not as big a deal as is simply having a good list of objective values by which to process it.

    However, ISJ uses the primary Si as an internal stabilizer for an external world that is viewed as chaotic and uncontrollable. Si is a collection of data, true, but a collection that is built around the priorities of the Si person -- it reflects their values. And it desires to act as an anchor to put constraints on the external world so as to force it to adhere to the inner values of the Si individual. (If you see some SJs "stuck in their rut," it's more often going to be ISJ, not ESJ.)

    In times in my life that I have greatly challenged status quo, I went into matters very leery of SJ people. What I found is that I actually had an easier time with the ESJ crowd -- they'd listen to my perspective, take it into account, view it as a "situation to be dealt with," and respond to it accordingly.

    It's actually been the ISJs with whom I've had a harder time. Because of the I, they're less prone to challenge directly -- they like to keep the peace and avoid engagement -- but they also fight tooth and nail to keep things the same. And if you try to convince/argue with an ISJ person, they're far more prone to see that again as a challenge to the inner landscape which already they are trying to use as an anchor AGAINST external change.... so it's perceived as an attempt to erode their priorities and values.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Thanks, Jennifer. Just for fast clarification: How are the values you mention above different from the often discussed values of the Fi function? I don't want to dwell on that though, unless it becomes important.

    In ISFJ, there is a Si-Fe combo at the top, so it might be tricky. And in ISTJ, there is a Si-Fi first and third, if that's even noticeable.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 11-24-2008 at 09:02 AM. Reason: complications
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Thanks, Jennifer. Just for fast clarification: How are the values you mention above different from the often discussed values of the Fi function? I don't want to dwell on that though, unless it becomes important.
    I don't have a cohesive answer to that.

    My off-the-cuff stab at it is, basically, Fi is an internal judging process and more conscious. Si is more subconscious, I think; it's perceptive, not consciously evaluating like Fi does.

    Because of that, Si is more an accumulation of past sensing perceptions that were stored in the psyche. I am guessing this based on the ISxJ people I've known throughout my life; the tendency is for their values to be based on the world (subculture and family) they grew up in. Once that "baseline" gets established, it becomes the anchor point against future change. So the world that gave them the baseline will change, but they generally see that as a negative and want to maintain what was. (Hence the focus on duty, responsibility, commitment to a way of life, measuring current things by what they were in the past, etc.)

    Fi doesn't seem to conform as much to the environmental pressures, you can get an Fi who starting as a child just seemed to be against the family's or subculture's values and is marching to the beat of a different drummer early on. There seems to be a conscious awareness of one's inner priorities, rather than just a mass accumulation that is not challenged until later in life.

    I don't know. that's just my first thoughts.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Senior Member Llewellyn's Avatar
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    Cimarron, this idea sheds some light on my frequent experience of 'some sort of' deja-vu, suddeny seeing everything as if I sure must have been there before in that exact setting (it was not so much about movement, as I deem is a true deja-vu). I tended to contribute it to Ni (or, was about to...) but now, since Si is (supposedly) my third function, and I have noticed it to be developing lately, I might see it as that.

    We might formulate Si as memory of continuance, where Ni is memory of change (connotations 'past' and 'future' resp.).
    INtj | 9w1

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Fi doesn't seem to conform as much to the environmental pressures, you can get an Fi who starting as a child just seemed to be against the family's or subculture's values and is marching to the beat of a different drummer early on. There seems to be a conscious awareness of one's inner priorities, rather than just a mass accumulation that is not challenged until later in life.
    This does really sound like Fi. At least my experience of it.

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In times in my life that I have greatly challenged status quo, I went into matters very leery of SJ people. What I found is that I actually had an easier time with the ESJ crowd -- they'd listen to my perspective, take it into account, view it as a "situation to be dealt with," and respond to it accordingly.

    It's actually been the ISJs with whom I've had a harder time. Because of the I, they're less prone to challenge directly -- they like to keep the peace and avoid engagement -- but they also fight tooth and nail to keep things the same. And if you try to convince/argue with an ISJ person, they're far more prone to see that again as a challenge to the inner landscape which already they are trying to use as an anchor AGAINST external change.... so it's perceived as an attempt to erode their priorities and values.
    Interesting observation. Now imagine growing up under two ISTJ parents who are always saying "That's Life/tht's just the way it is". My ESFJ wife is not nearly as bad with that, but I always attributed it to the T/F difference. That has to be at least part of it. (An ESTJ, I thought would be even worse!)
    Just last night I was trying to explain to her her apparent Si aux. preference, and I generally use the "memory" definition, but she didn't understand it. I was even reading out of Berens' ESFJ function description.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't have a cohesive answer to that.

    My off-the-cuff stab at it is, basically, Fi is an internal judging process and more conscious. Si is more subconscious, I think; it's perceptive, not consciously evaluating like Fi does.
    Oh right, I forgot. Thank you, yes the distinction between a Judging function and a Perceiving function.

    The perceptive functions Si and Ni are the "deepest down" in our consciousness, so they are probably not easy to be actively aware of as the other processes.

    Llewellyn, I wouldn't know. Ni is very confusing to me, also. This is why I'm trying not to let Si and Ni blur together, because there is a difference.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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