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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    The perceptive functions Si and Ni are the "deepest down" in our consciousness, so they are probably not easy to be actively aware of as the other processes.
    I'm going to defer to my experiences again:

    In practical experience, I find it far more typical for Fi people to be very self-aware of why they do the things they do and be able to articulate it, while Si people tend to just be doing things and either express surprise when I've "triggered" realizations in them in the process of a conversation or else fight tooth and nail over something, then later come and say, "Sorry, I didn't realize that you were right and I was really operating under A, B, and C; I just did not realize it."

    It's really interesting to see people operating from such different bases.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Interesting observation. Now imagine growing up under two ISTJ parents who are always saying "That's Life/tht's just the way it is". My ESFJ wife is not nearly as bad with that, but I always attributed it to the T/F difference. That has to be at least part of it. (An ESTJ, I thought would be even worse!)
    i think with ISTJ vs ISFJ, the ISTJ is impersonal about it -- life is more supposed to fit together efficiently and exactly, and the personal elements are often disregarded or subsumed. ISFJs express their Si through Fe, so they really do want to be finding and filling needs, and they are definitely far more interested in the practical personal aspects of the conflict. So you will get more sympathy out of them, even if their bottom line is still "suck it up, princess; do your duty."

    Just last night I was trying to explain to her her apparent Si aux. preference, and I generally use the "memory" definition, but she didn't understand it. I was even reading out of Berens' ESFJ function description.
    The more intellectualized the description gets, the harder it is for the SJ, I think. It's got to be practical, relevant, and placed in context of their own lives, with lots of real-example analogy. N's will much more easily grasp an intuitive idea.

    Plus... resistance, again, to anything that runs against what has been established, unless it can be justified (for the ESJ).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The more intellectualized the description gets, the harder it is for the SJ, I think. It's got to be practical, relevant, and placed in context of their own lives, with lots of real-example analogy. N's will much more easily grasp an intuitive idea.
    But that's what I was saying in my OP. Everyone has memory, it's a vital use of the brain. Does having strong Si mean we try to make more complete use of our memory? Can something so fundamental to the brain really be a minor thing for Ni-preferring minds? Intuitives on this website have superb memories, I've noticed. (But let's not get stuck on Ni discussion, there's plenty of that elsewhere. Compare it to Si. )

    Also, it's strange to me that something like "storage of data" could be categorized as introverted sensing.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 11-24-2008 at 10:25 AM. Reason: spelling mistake
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Does having strong Si mean we try to make more complete use of our memory?
    What do you mean by that, exactly?

    N people CAN have good memories. (Mine was superb when I was younger -- now, not so hot.)

    The thing is that N people run off and explore abstract implications far more readily and instinctively than S people. They're less interested in data than the ramifications of the data.

    Si people have very sharp memories for the things they prioritize, whether it's sports data, people's important dates, car information, or whatever else. My ISFJ mom was an RN for 40 years. Within the confines of her work she could rattle off very specific dosing amounts for numerous medications; she terrified me mainly sometimes because she couldn't apply the information well to new situations, if anything changed she became rattled. For someone who doesn't put information together well, I am still amazed at how many details she recalls... if the details are of value to her. (N's, I've seen, tend to accumulate a lot of data in many areas, not just one's of priority; anything "new and interesting" is a priority. They also tend to store just the key data and reconstruct other data from it, rather than storing it all.)

    S people focus very clearly on data -- both the raw information, as well as what that data has meant for them in past experience. Si people in particular tend to accumulate a lot of past data based on their priorities to build a picture of the world inside of them that they then reference.

    Joe Butts described Si as being not the raw experience of a chair but the idea of a chair inside one's mind that has been constructed. So unless specific care is focused on the external world, usually what gets seen is the "chair image" -- "what the chair should be, as all chairs are." Se people are much more apt to see "what is" and deal with that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    The example of your mom was I think what I was getting at with that last question. I can relate to that story; it's something I've been working on, but it is a struggle. But how can something like "remembering a large store of information" be attributed to Si? What does it have to do with sensing?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Joe Butts described Si as being not the raw experience of a chair but the idea of a chair inside one's mind that has been constructed. So unless specific care is focused on the external world, usually what gets seen is the "chair image" -- "what the chair should be, as all chairs are." Se people are much more apt to see "what is" and deal with that.
    is still not as clear. The only way you would know what "chairs are like" is with experiences with chairs in the past, built up over time. I guess that's what you were saying--past experiences, supposedly the source of Si--but I'm not really aware of an "internal picture of the world" as Joe Butts is. I mean, I assume things will be the way they've always been, until something changes, then that becomes the new assumption. But it couldn't be otherwise, could it? You can have doubt, guessing that events may not be the same, but don't we all subconsciously "expect" them to be the same when under similar conditions?
    Last edited by Cimarron; 11-24-2008 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Important question
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  6. #16
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    That's an intresting thread, I wanted to say first of all .

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In practical experience, I find it far more typical for Fi people to be very self-aware of why they do the things they do and be able to articulate it, while Si people tend to just be doing things and either express surprise when I've "triggered" realizations in them in the process of a conversation or else fight tooth and nail over something, then later come and say, "Sorry, I didn't realize that you were right and I was really operating under A, B, and C; I just did not realize it."
    I especially found that thing Jennifer said quite intresting. I wanted to add that I know of a similiar phaenomenom and that could be seen maybe as the "dominat perceivers" standpoint in that.

    Normally when talking to T or F dominants, its like bouncing off your ideas. You bring in the things that come to your mind and they sort out the structure of it in the process. I guess that's a thing everyone has experienced in his life to some point and can relate to.

    But what is intresting, if you have that hardcore analyzer sitting before you. And I experience that sometimes. You give him information about a thing you possess or you bounce off ideas and he either askes, where the information was derived from or he dismisses all the ideas.

    I had that special moment today and the information I had about an electric engine, I gave him, because I knew the data sheet. The matter to study for us was new and therefore I couldnt give him an answer to the question, where you could derive my information from (besides the facts in the datasheet).

    So I developed during the conversation antipathy against him. I of course did not show it, but those things come automatically to me, I start to dislike this guy then. He never really once said "that's a cool idea", no he constantly evaluated my things and he was right in doing so of course.

    Dont know if he is a EJ or IJ of any sort, definitly a J though (can smell em miles away) but and now I'll come to my point: there was that one moment he suddenly totally agreed with me on a topic and then felt back into his old behavioral pattern.

    I feel through conversations, they aint just words, there are things going on, call it crazyness, that's what my attitude probably is. I felt in the conversation like a wave in the ocean. Every impulse of shared thoughts is a wave unfolding into the ocean. But at this point, there was no linearity, no smoothness that felt like the ocean has vanished for a second and then returned. Like a singularity in the spacetime continuum.

    I hope you did get my point. What I wanted to say, with most people I have a clear style of conversation. And I have a somewhat clear image of what they do and what they dont do in my inner eye. Change in style is absolutely welcome. But sometimes there are people you meet massive change in. Like something that does not fit in their overall style of apperance. That's like a disabled guy driving around in a wheel chair and suddenly when he comes to a traffic light, he steps out the chair pushes the button for the green light to come and then sits back down and behaves like nothing did happen.

    I am wondering if that are fligments of Perception in a dominant T or F type or if it is a dominant Si or Ni type, taking in new ideas and responding to them, giving his acceptance.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #17
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    I remembered something that I think may be an example of Si from my life.

    It's weird, but often I confuse left and right. Those two directions are something that don't usually come automatically to my mind. So what do I do when I need to figure out which one is which? There is a fork in the road in the back of my neighborhood, just before the street dead-ends. Going toward it, you have to turn one of two ways--right or left. I remember right vs. left by picturing this street in my head, looking at the fork in that road. I suggest to myself that one direction may be "left". I see how it feels...it feels like "left". Then I suggest the other one, and see how it feels...it doesn't feel like "left". This is how I always check when I need to be sure--to me it's the most certain method.

    Does this sound like Si?

    -------------

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie
    Normally when talking to T or F dominants, its like bouncing off your ideas. You bring in the things that come to your mind and they sort out the structure of it in the process. I guess that's a thing everyone has experienced in his life to some point and can relate to.
    That is an interesting observation. How do you think it would be different for dominant perceivers (N or S dominant)? Kind of like what you quoted from Jennifer?
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I understood that Jennifer was describing a thing she had with dominant perceivers from her point of view (Ti) and I tried to give a smiliar perspective but from the dominant perceivers point of view in that case.

    I did probably said the same like her, to some extent *fg*
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #19
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Ohh, okay. I see what you were doing now.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    ...
    But we all remember details, don't we?
    ...
    I am a singer by nature. I have sung all my life. Any time and any where. I used to think everybody sang. I was quite surprised when I learned there was such a thing as someone who can't sing. Because I could do it, I thought everybody could.

    I think that's the way we tend to be with our MB traits.
    Until we learn differently, we don't realize we have a special gift that not everyone has.
    Yes. We all remember details, but not in the special way that you do.

    I had a friend who was an ISFJ. The primary function for the ISFJ is Si. We worked together doing historical research. We dealt with old pictures, genealogy books, wrote historical newsletters, etc. It was uncanny the stuff she could remember! She would remember almost exactly where to find information she might have seen over 5 years earlier! She remembered minute details in old photos. When I was first getting to know her, we would be working together and she would say, "I have a hunch THIS is what it is." And I would ask? How do you know? What are you basing it on? To me, it looked like she was making a HUGE assumption based on absolutely nothing. Most times, she would just say, "I don't know how I know. It's just a hunch" (Sounds a lot like my Ni.) But I knew her long enough to learn that her "hunches" were not "guesses" at all, but based on little bits of fact and information that she had gleaned over time. I think there was only one time she was wrong in 3 years, and she was stressed out at the time.

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