User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 24

  1. #1
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default MBTI - mind to matter

    Newbie here.

    A few questions I have about the psychometric tool of MBTI.

    In the simplest term, it tries to tap into an individual's preference for certain attitudes/functions, while assuming mutual exclusivity b/w binary functions.

    Cool.

    Oh ya, and, even though binary, there's still a degree of preference.

    Gotcha.

    Then, functions are ordered in a heirarchy of preferences, with one function aiding another from a different binary category...and so on and so on...until the 8th order.

    ..to finally give us...the BIG PICTURE.

    **

    If typing personality (which, to me, is about how we utilize our cognitive and motivational processes to predict a scheme of behavioural patterns) integrates what is IN our minds, to, what we ARE/DO/COULD BE...

    ....where is the bridge between the mind to the matter?

    Meaning, how confident are we in the underlying assumption that behavioural outcomes are in line with cognitive and motivational processes?

    Can we never think of instances where our behaviour contradicts our cognitive and motivational processes (e.g., influence of environment)? Most radically, can a person be truly type WXYZ but *prefer* and even test as type ZXWY due to the *some reason*? (e.g., behavioural conditioning not favouring their 'true' type)

    So, how 'core' is personality? How valid and reliabile is measuring cognitive and motivational processes to predict behaviour?

    Simply, my burning curiosity is how we explain how we get from the 'inside' (mind - cognition, motivation) to 'outside' (behaviours manifested)? What's the story of the yellow brick road that leads us from the inside to the outside?

    Maybe, the simplest explanation is that, as with any reductionist model, the whole may very well be greater than the sum of its parts....and in that, lies the answer.
    Last edited by Qre:us; 11-21-2008 at 05:12 PM. Reason: cuz i can

  2. #2
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post

    **
    ....where is the bridge between the mind to the matter?

    Meaning, how confident are we in the underlying assumption that behavioural outcomes are in line with cognitive and motivational processes?

    Can we never think of instances where our behaviour contradicts our cognitive and motivational processes (e.g., influence of environment)? Most radically, can a person be truly type WXYZ but *prefer* and even test as type ZXWY due to the *some reason*? (e.g., behavioural conditioning not favouring their 'true' type)

    So, how 'core' is personality? How valid and reliabile is measuring cognitive and motivational processes to predict behaviour?

    Simply, my burning curiosity is how we explain how we get from the 'inside' (mind - cognition, motivation) to 'outside' (behaviours manifested)? What's the story of the yellow brick road that leads us from the inside to the outside?

    Maybe, the simplest explanation is that, as with any reductionist model, the whole may very well be greater than the sum of its parts....and in that, lies the answer.
    First off, nice to meet ya. Great first post!

    To your question, I'm not sure what you mean by the statement in bold.

    By cognitive and motivational processes, are you explicitly referring to aspects that are of tangible importance to the nuts n' bolts of our daily lives? (driving habits; choice of personal company in our lives; occupation, etc...), or are you making mention of the abstract physiological pattern of event that occurs beneath our psychological notice (autonomic functions; neural initiatives that give rise to food preference; predisposition to biochemically-authored states (depression, anxiety), etc...)?

    Typology serves as a best guess. We are an inconsistent creature - what we do depends on what's important to our nuanced psychology. A Feeler doesn't always select emotional interaction above detached analysis. Likewise, Thinkers certainly feel emotion -- strong emotional outbursts are common (as you'll find out if you stick around!) to the normal scope of a healthy mind.

    Ultimately, the metric is a best guess. It's flexible and doesn't necessarily encapsulate any method of insular behavior, regardless of Type.

    People are exceptionally complex animals. To think that a single field of evaluation could concisely abstract a reliable discourse on our intimate mentalities -- to such an extent that it rendered a complete picture of what it means to be human -- is to suspend intellectual disbelief to the point of rendering individuality meaningless.

  3. #3
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    550

    Default

    I´ll have a go at answering your interesting questions. According to NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming - a type of alternative psychology with very practical and powerful applications) - mind and body are one system.

    Therefore it isn´t possible to entirely separate our cognitive processes from our physiological and behavioural responses. NLP training (which I have undergone) teaches you how to refine your perceptual skills to the point where you can tell a great deal about a person´s thought processes from simply observing subtle eye movements, posture and skin tone, for example.

    I would suggest that we feel most comfortable and congruent with ourselves, when we act in accordance with our innate MBTI type. Of course, life requires us to operate outside our comfort zones much of the time. I´d guess that it becomes harder and harder to do this the more we try to use behaviours associated with our least preferred type functions.

    For example, I know that I struggle desperately with trying to use Extraverted Thinking in any sort of coherent or efficient way. This can put me at a severe disadvantage in the modern workplace, which places a high value on Te-based skills. I have learned to compensate using my auxiliary Fe, by basically asking other people for help (or simply copying their work) when I get stuck in a Te-rut.

    Is this the sort of thing you were thinking about?
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    type
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Newbie here.

    A few questions I have about the psychometric tool of MBTI.

    In the simplest term, it tries to tap into an individual's preference for certain attitudes/functions, while assuming mutual exclusivity b/w binary functions.
    Yeah, that's what the tests do.

    Oh ya, and, even though binary, there's still a degree of preference.

    Gotcha.
    It's irrelevant, this "degree" business. Once a preference is determined, you're categorized.

    Then, functions are ordered in a heirarchy of preferences, with one function aiding another from a different binary category...and so on and so on...until the 8th order.

    ..to finally give us...the BIG PICTURE.
    Nah, all functions are going to do is fill your brain with Hokum that's very hard to remove once it's in there. I warn you, but you won't listen.

    **

    If typing personality (which, to me, is about how we utilize our cognitive and motivational processes to predict a scheme of behavioural patterns) integrates what is IN our minds, to, what we ARE/DO/COULD BE...

    ....where is the bridge between the mind to the matter?
    What we do which is observable defines us. What we are which cannot be analyzed is a bit beyond the scope of psychological study, right? Depends on who you ask.
    Meaning, how confident are we in the underlying assumption that behavioural outcomes are in line with cognitive and motivational processes?
    We can work under the assumption that people do what they are driven to do. How else are you going to go about it?

    Can we never think of instances where our behaviour contradicts our cognitive and motivational processes (e.g., influence of environment)? Most radically, can a person be truly type WXYZ but *prefer* and even test as type ZXWY due to the *some reason*? (e.g., behavioural conditioning not favouring their 'true' type)
    Type affects how we react to external stimuli, but naturally the stimuli have a profound effect on what we do. Put someone of any type in a room with a chair, and eventually most types of people will sit down, right? Put everyone in the same room, with thousands of objects, and people find a niche.

    So, how 'core' is personality? How valid and reliabile is measuring cognitive and motivational processes to predict behaviour?
    It's effective if you're really good at it. Most aren't.
    Simply, my burning curiosity is how we explain how we get from the 'inside' (mind - cognition, motivation) to 'outside' (behaviours manifested)? What's the story of the yellow brick road that leads us from the inside to the outside?
    That's the question, isn't it. But it's more of an academic concern than a practical one. The behavior is already out there, which can be used to classify and understand people. The whys can be taken as implied.

    Maybe, the simplest explanation is that, as with any reductionist model, the whole may very well be greater than the sum of its parts....and in that, lies the answer.
    You didn't just figure that out. Most people know that to be any one type means more than the four preferences.

    There've been a lot of new ENFPs lately.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    1,917

    Default

    Of course, life requires us to operate outside our comfort zones much of the time. I´d guess that it becomes harder and harder to do this the more we try to use behaviours associated with our least preferred type functions
    Really interesting! Do you think that in fact we do not act as our shadow selves when under stress but actually being put into circumstances that require us to use those functions causes us stress? What are your thoughts?
    ... couldn't drag me away

    Željko Ražnatovic: argus
    Željko Ražnatovic: do you want heir's?
    WildHorses: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Željko Ražnatovic: to carry your genealogical code??

  6. #6
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    550

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild horses View Post
    Really interesting! Do you think that in fact we do not act as our shadow selves when under stress but actually being put into circumstances that require us to use those functions causes us stress? What are your thoughts?
    That´s a bit like asking which came first: the chicken or the egg! I guess the answer to your question is that both situations are true:

    When we are under stress, we can flip over into our shadow side, which often invokes our weakest type functions to rise up and take over our personality for a while. Conversely, trying to use those same functions for an extended period of time, or when under pressure, can also invoke our Shadow-side.

    The line between conscious functions and shadow functions will vary for each person according to their level of type development. I am 47 years old and have reasonable development or familiarity with my first four functions. As an INFJ, these are Ni, Fe, Ti and Se.

    Use of these four is less likely to invoke my Shadow; though it can still happen - particularly with Se. It´s the other four which cause me grief if I have to use them too often: Ne, Fi, Te and Si.

    Engaging these functions is quite unconscious for me - they only come into play when the task or situation I am engaged in requires their related skills. It´s usually only after the event that I may notice that I have been using one of these 4 functions.

    For more info, check out the "Archetypes of the Functions" thread here:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...functions.html
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  7. #7
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    1,917

    Default

    Will do thanks... I had been under a period of stress for some time which caused my shaow self to emerge (not sure if it emerged because I was stressed or that it emerged because the circumstances required it to do so and therefore, I became uncomfortable using these functions and hence stressed) Maybe the ISTJ shadow is the reason why we ENFPs are known for being excellent in a crisis?
    ... couldn't drag me away

    Željko Ražnatovic: argus
    Željko Ražnatovic: do you want heir's?
    WildHorses: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Željko Ražnatovic: to carry your genealogical code??

  8. #8
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post

    Meaning, how confident are we in the underlying assumption that behavioural outcomes are in line with cognitive and motivational processes?

    To your question, I'm not sure what you mean by the statement in bold.

    By cognitive and motivational processes, are you explicitly referring to aspects that are of tangible importance to the nuts n' bolts of our daily lives? (driving habits; choice of personal company in our lives; occupation, etc...),
    Kinda, but grazing the surface. Our inclinations towards how we handle aspects of the daily grind (including, I agree, interpersonal relationships with others; family, friends, professional, even strangers around us).

    What motivates me to choose like this, and what motivates you to choose like that....

    And, in terms of cognition, there's theories on how cognition plays itself out (...perhaps): from sensation (acquisition), to compartmentalization, to processing, to perception....

    [simulation {models}/hypotheses...galore]

    So, Science tells us, when we look at the psychology of the mind, esp. learning and application, that there's a pathway the "particle" of "thought" travels, to finally come out in the form it does (say, behaviour).

    So, can there not be a broken-telephone effect from here to there? In to out? Can there be no confounding in assuming behavioural predictions (as a generalization, albeit) through 'measuring' cognitive and motivational thinking? Is it that linear? Without any hampering (noise, disturbance) along the way?

    Just a thought, popped up when looking at all the literature on the applications of MBTI. (and my mental challenge to the benefit of that application)


    or are you making mention of the abstract physiological pattern of event that occurs beneath our psychological notice (autonomic functions; neural initiatives that give rise to food preference; predisposition to biochemically-authored states (depression, anxiety), etc...)?
    ***
    Random aside: Not really following you here, in what you mean by abstract in terms of physiological patterns of events? It may very well be "abstract" because" they are 'sub-conscious' (e.g., autonomic, even, at the level of semi-autonomic, most of the time), thus we don't fully grasp (have control over?) these functions/events, so we can't ever really....know...them. Hence, abstract.

    ***
    But, nah, not really looking at physiological aspect(s). Random net-reading produced this one site of how different types generally may look, physically. I call that shyte out. At least towards trying to find a meaningful correlation between personality typing theory and physicality.

    (again, my amusement at how MBTI gets interpreted/used in our 'material' world)

    Typology serves as a best guess. We are an inconsistent creature - what we do depends on what's important to our nuanced psychology. A Feeler doesn't always select emotional interaction above detached analysis. Likewise, Thinkers certainly feel emotion -- strong emotional outbursts are common (as you'll find out if you stick around!) to the normal scope of a healthy mind.
    Here, here....but, we still can't help but play the MBTI (and others) game. It's fun to be part of a club, I guess, and, get to celebrate being similar in differences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post

    You didn't just figure that out. Most people know that to be any one type means more than the four preferences.

    [Qre:us chorus: but...with all that being said...*ahem*....]

    There've been a lot of new ENFPs lately.
    Whether in jest, that statement rings a lot of truth. (I've seen around forums on the net, while lurking 'fore joining)

    We seem to predict behaviour [2-D behaviour cues of speech and thought-action] from perhaps ...assumptions...of supposed coginitive and motivational inclinations and how they work themselves out into categorical personalities.

    Ya made a smiley...ya must be a feely. Etc etc.


    People are exceptionally complex animals. To think that a single field of evaluation could concisely abstract a reliable discourse on our intimate mentalities -- to such an extent that it rendered a complete picture of what it means to be human -- is to suspend intellectual disbelief to the point of rendering individuality meaningless.
    But, we still want validations that our individuality does not leave us alone against the rest of the word, don't we? IMO, individuality speaks to the deeper truth of belonging (for some personality types, I'd play at assumption, that that thought leaves a sour taste in their anarchic mouth).

    Hence, the game of MBTI.

    *please do not apply negative weight to the use of the word 'game' (*shwing!* pre-emptive counter )

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    type
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post

    Whether in jest, that statement rings a lot of truth. (I've seen around forums on the net, while lurking 'fore joining)

    We seem to predict behaviour [2-D behaviour cues of speech and thought-action] from perhaps ...assumptions...of supposed coginitive and motivational inclinations and how they work themselves out into categorical personalities.

    Ya made a smiley...ya must be a feely. Etc etc.
    Oh, the smiley had nothing to do with it. Are you saying you're not ENFP?

    And regarding predicting behavior, it sounds as if you doubt the veracity of claims of competence. There are plenty of skills I have no talent in which I still believe can be performed.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Are you saying you're not ENFP?
    Who knows....


    ...do you?

    And regarding predicting behavior, it sounds as if you doubt the veracity of claims of competence.
    If questioning, skepticism is doubt....then, ya. But, that would also mean I doubt any and all knowledge gained. I always aim to question any knowledge acquired. I ain't hatin'...it's an indiscriminate discrinimation on my part.

    There are plenty of skills I have no talent in which I still believe can be performed.
    ...round of applause?

Similar Threads

  1. How is this MBTI useful to your life?
    By Xander in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 09-25-2010, 01:22 PM
  2. Replies: 61
    Last Post: 12-06-2009, 07:27 PM
  3. [NF] am i infj or infp?i'm open minded to any suggestions outside of this too thanks
    By INFtha14 in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-09-2009, 07:24 PM
  4. MBTI Compared to the Big Five
    By FFF in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-24-2008, 03:03 PM
  5. MBTI relationship to Personality Adaptations from TA
    By Silk in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-18-2007, 03:15 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO