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  1. #1
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Default One for the experts.

    Right I'm thinking along the lines of MBTI and Enneagram. I've known a few people who when doing soul searching found one or the other more helpful.

    Basically I'd like to discuss what one represents as opposed to the other, how much they should be integrated and what dangers, hazards and highlights there are to this kind of approach.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Right I'm thinking along the lines of MBTI and Enneagram. I've known a few people who when doing soul searching found one or the other more helpful.

    Basically I'd like to discuss what one represents as opposed to the other, how much they should be integrated and what dangers, hazards and highlights there are to this kind of approach.
    Short answer:

    MBTI is an analysis of our priorities when we gather and process information. These priorities generate the sixteen types.

    The Enneagram is a list of nine archetypes as the basis for the system, rather than starting with foundational functions. The types are more closely bound in the sense that people who are either maturing or declining will drift in defined ways towards one of the other archetypes. It is this sense of "movement" within the theory itself that probably makes it appeal to the more spiritualized audience.

    Some aspects of the MBTI and Enneagram do intertwine. For example, some of the types commonly map into the other system. The INTPs are usually Fives, for example, and occassionally Nines. With the Fives, I am going to hazard a guess that 5w4 INTPs have more developed Fi/Ni/Ne (one or more of those) and not as stringent a Ti sense as the 5w6, which seems to be more about Ti and Si development. A case for stronger Ni in the case of the 5w4 can most easily be made because INxJ types (with Ni as their Primary) map most often into the Fours. Also, interestingly, the 5w4 wing has been identified as the "Iconoclast" (the Enneagram type that deconstructs "signs"), and if you study the Ni function (see the Lenore Thomson wiki), you'll see that this is exactly what Ni does... it recognizes that signs really do not have inherent meaning and thus steps outside them in order to better see what is happening.

    [Thoughts on this are appreciated.]

    In this sense, I find a combination of MBTI/Enneagram to be useful to explain variances within types in MBTI. You also see potentials for growth that you wouldn't find in MBTI. For example, INTPs are told that they need to develop Fe to eventually mature, but the Enneagram takes a different tact: Five goes to Eight, which means the INTP grows by involving himself and trusting his instincts (TiNe working together) rather than sitting back detached and uninvolved in life. Those are both good strategies, and MBTI doesn't really engage the latter one.

    One thing to be careful of is that there is no good map. Some types map easily, others do not. There have been numerous theoretical approaches as to what the map should (I've personally seen at least 4-5 different ones).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #3
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    By map I am assuming your meaning a kind of plan for development, linking to the other thread. As such, yes this is why I'm investigating where the two kinds of profiling integrate and to what extent they do. It's not really to develop a better typing system, though I very much think that it's possible to develop a more detailed typing system (which is not necessarily better), but more to try and find a few developmental hints and tips.

    The reason for this line of thinking is that I've seen many people with problems and not all of them are adequately covered by the MBTI. The enneagram however seems to dovetail nicely with the MBTI and should therefore provide the much needed extra pointers.

    As for the development of certain functions versus what enneagram you are, I think that this would be a dangerous route to follow. Myself being INTP9 I've been told I Ti the crap out of everything and yet Ti would fall more into the remit of the 5 in my opinion with the whole detatched intellectual.

    Perhaps the relationship is more MBTI is what you do, enneagram is why you do it?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #4
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Perhaps the relationship is more MBTI is what you do, enneagram is why you do it?
    Bingo.

    Different lenses. Don't use them to validate each other.

    During my MBTI class, I spoke at length with a psychotherapist who has used Enneagram for 20+ years in her practice. There are behaviors that are similar--like an INTP, ISTP, and ISFJ will be surface-calm--what's under the hood is fundamentally different.

    Incidentally, this is why I'm increasingly cautious about type-speculation based on observed behavior.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  5. #5
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Bingo.

    Different lenses. Don't use them to validate each other.
    Whoa!
    Eh?

    No not validate. The point is that the MBTI doesn't cover all. It can't. It's only looking at cognitive processes. So we must use another tool for something more. The enneagram seems to dovetail nicely. I'm just investigating the fit.
    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    During my MBTI class, I spoke at length with a psychotherapist who has used Enneagram for 20+ years in her practice. There are behaviors that are similar--like an INTP, ISTP, and ISFJ will be surface-calm--what's under the hood is fundamentally different.
    Right. That's what I was getting at. The thing is that even with all the information from the MBTI it's still quite murky. Basically you have to be a professional equiped with all the ifs, buts, whens, and maybes to go deep into MBTI. That's not much good to us mortals Therefore I'm looking for another way. A way where I can type people according to both systems and them present them with options based on the interplay.
    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Incidentally, this is why I'm increasingly cautious about type-speculation based on observed behavior.
    Oh hell yeah. Observation ain't sheet without context. Hence the pros get paid big bucks.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #6
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Right. That's what I was getting at. The thing is that even with all the information from the MBTI it's still quite murky. Basically you have to be a professional equiped with all the ifs, buts, whens, and maybes to go deep into MBTI. That's not much good to us mortals Therefore I'm looking for another way. A way where I can type people according to both systems and them present them with options based on the interplay.

    Oh hell yeah. Observation ain't sheet without context. Hence the pros get paid big bucks.
    So...you want a way to do what you just admitted can't be done: Type people based on observable behavior.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    During my MBTI class, I spoke at length with a psychotherapist who has used Enneagram for 20+ years in her practice. There are behaviors that are similar--like an INTP, ISTP, and ISFJ will be surface-calm--what's under the hood is fundamentally different.
    Yes, that's been a problem in what i see in many type readings -- the same observable behavior is attributed identical motivations, but people aren't realizing that different motivations might exist.

    (Note: This is the same reason people have arguments, many times -- someone does something that means one thing in their lexicon, but the observed behavior means something different in the viewer's personal lexicon.)

    Which is why I like a more holistic view. The theory gives a framework off which to understand and anticipate motivations, and then you can look at all the pieces of the person [behavior, speech, approach, style of thinking, focus, appearance, etc.] and see which alignment/type fits all the pieces. (i.e., how all the pieces... not just one... best click into place).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, that's been a problem in what i see in many type readings -- the same observable behavior is attributed identical motivations, but people aren't realizing that different motivations might exist.
    This is why understanding your own type biases is so vital.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  9. #9
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    So...you want a way to do what you just admitted can't be done: Type people based on observable behavior.
    Who said a what now????

    *taps microphone* this thing on?



    Context... CONTEXT!

    Context..1..2...3

    You can't type based on a list of tick boxes. It doesn't work. You CAN type based on observation IF your understanding of the MBTI is good enough and you have enough experience of it and it's implementation.

    For example.. We know certain traits of one type. We know .. for example... if someone keeps questioning why they should do things that they are increasing the probability that they are an NT. It's not certain but at some point the probability must be high enough to treat it as a solid preference. Hence you can type people.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #10
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    This is why understanding your own type biases is so vital.
    Yes, not just for effective "type reading" but often to simply get past one's own crap and relationally maturing. (I know, for me, much of my anxiety in social settings came because I was completely misreading other people's motivations and opinions of me based on their comments/actions.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander
    For example.. We know certain traits of one type. We know .. for example... if someone keeps questioning why they should do things that they are increasing the probability that they are an NT. It's not certain but at some point the probability must be high enough to treat it as a solid preference.
    eh, too vague still

    For example, SJ types will question things as well -- but in a slightly different style and context. (The whole "authority" paradigm leads them to often behave either in the role of a "good citizen" or a "rebel." The rebel is constantly challenging things because their motivation is not to conform.) The NT questions things because he wants to know the answer, and gets mad at authority as a side issue because they interfere with the search for truth.

    So one also looks at lots of other comments and behaviors and seeing how everything adds up. The more factors/data involved in the judgment, the better the judgment.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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