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  1. #11
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You can't type based on a list of tick boxes. It doesn't work. You CAN type based on observation IF your understanding of the MBTI is good enough and you have enough experience of it and it's implementation.

    For example.. We know certain traits of one type. We know .. for example... if someone keeps questioning why they should do things that they are increasing the probability that they are an NT. It's not certain but at some point the probability must be high enough to treat it as a solid preference. Hence you can type people.
    Er, no.

    You may hypothesize a type preference based on behavior.

    For example:
    • If someone is stressed or has learned to adopt behaviors from a non-preferred function/attitude, then typing off observed behaviors will not be reliable.
    • If we agree with type development theory, then there could be a great difference between the behaviors of a given type at age 20, age 40, and age 55.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #12
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Er, no.

    You may hypothesize a type preference based on behavior.
    Dude it's a theory. Chill. It's all hypothetical based upon it's own free standing standards and such. As such as long as it works, who cares.

    I'm not trying to be argumentative here but the whole of the MBTI is pretty much guestimations and theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    For example:
    • If someone is stressed or has learned to adopt behaviors from a non-preferred function/attitude, then typing off observed behaviors will not be reliable.
    • If we agree with type development theory, then there could be a great difference between the behaviors of a given type at age 20, age 40, and age 55.
    Exactly right. You as someone who has been taught such things will be aware that what your observing may be a result of that and so you are more aware. It's all about grabbing another percentage mark of certainty with typing there is no 100%.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #13
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I'm not trying to be argumentative here but the whole of the MBTI is pretty much guestimations and theory.
    Yes, you are being argumentative. It's in your nature.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #14
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Yes, you are being argumentative. It's in your nature.
    I'm not alone
    What I mean't was is that my motivation behind what I say is not to cause an argument. My points may lead to an argument till we agree or plateu in some other form.

    So definately &

    Edit :-
    Right now I'm out of work let me elaborate.

    One first contact you have a 1in16 chance of getting a persons type right. The more things you witness and the more you know what key things to look for, such as the ENTJ way of coming up with a plan which should include everybody but is done their way, then you are more likely to get it right. You probably won't be able to tick every box and make it 100% but there again it was a person with observations who came up with the origional deliniations (Jung) so why can't someone do the same now?

    I'm not saying that this is particularly good practice as it encourages others to think that they too can do it with less experience and insight which then often leads on to typist behaviour (no, not the one with RSI who gets chased around desks by the gaffer). However to say that you CAN'T do it is incorrect, it's just that there's a long list of caveats.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #15
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I'm not alone
    What I mean't was is that my motivation behind what I say is not to cause an argument. My points may lead to an argument till we agree or plateu in some other form.
    Dude, what's the midpoint on the MBTI scale in your sig?
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    You may hypothesize a type preference based on behavior.
    just found this online, reading about Firo-B and thought it was very apropos.


    Tip of The Iceberg
    A major concern of mine is that people are left thinking that FIRO theory is primarily represented by the FIRO-B instrument and "needs" for inclusion, control and affection behaviors. This approach is inaccurate on the semantic level in that the word "need" is no longer part of the theory. It was replaced with "want." The behavioral aspect of the theory, measured by Element B, is only the tip of the iceberg.

    Jung said that when he observed someone’s behavior he did not know what their type was because it was impossible to know what component of their psyche was actually causing the behaviors he was observing. FIRO theory says the same about behaviors. The largest and most important parts of the theory are the underlying causes of the behaviors. This is where Element F: Feelings and Element S: Self come in to play. To understand a person’s behavior one must, at a minimum, understand that person’s feelings, self-concept, self-esteem and fears. Just as the four-letter type code does not explain personality, neither do FIRO-B or even Element B explain FIRO theory.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    The only proper way to integrate two theories is to work back from common words used to determine each respective type... For example, this is a test taken from 9 types;


    I'd rather do things:
    a) the right way than cut corners to increase efficiency
    b) efficiently and successfully than perform perfectly
    (Ranked from 1-5)

    (+Type1,-Type3)

    This is a similar question asked from a FFM test;

    3. ...Does a thorough job

    (C+)(Ranked from 1-5)

    Therefore, certain traits within the Conscientious bucket in FFM will correlate to Type 1, and be anti-correlated to Type 2.

    In practice, Enneagram doesn't correlate well at all (in part because there is no natural conversion, like with MBTI and FFM... and in part because the Enneagram uses pairs rather than distilled traits.)

    The best thing to do with these kinds of tests is to really understand what is being tested and how it maps back to people's behavior. If you understand more than one system, rather than attempting to translate it back and forth, you can accept that each one measures different, if similar, things. As a tool, it helps you understand people just by knowing what they would answer. It's the best thing to aim for, especially at first.

  8. #18
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Dude, what's the midpoint on the MBTI scale in your sig?
    Don't ask me. It doesn't make any sense but all the cool kids were doing it so I assumed it was informative to someone. You know how I like to be clear of where I'm coming from

    I quized my father on the percentages idea. He was horrified. "Your either an INTP or your not." was the response.

    I've never really worried that according to the numbers I'm hardly INTP at all.

    Fortunato,
    That quoted piece has to have been written by someone who studied law. All it needs to do is talk about people as "the party of the first part" and "the party of the second part" to complete the picture. IOW I think there's a lot simpler way of expressing what they were saying, which doesn't fill me with confidence in what they were saying. Why did you find it useful?

    ptGatsby,
    You may well be right that the enneagram and the MBTI are fundamentally different. That is however semi irrelevant. If all you can end up with when combining these two results from two different tools is that each of the sixteen MBTI types are then further broken down into enneagram numbers then that's how far it goes. I think that it's a little more involved than that. For one when my father read through the description of a 9 he said it sounded like the description for an INFP. Now it's kinda strange don't you think that I just happen to be an INTP who tests well for F?

    Of course I am no rosetta stone but it does get me thinking.

    Another thing which occurs is how so many INTPs seem to be 5s. Such correlations would suggest that there's some kind of link even if you are testing in two very different ways.

    One thing which does occur to me is that it is potentially possible that it's the same things which are being tested but due to the nature of the enneagram and it's history then the advice and analysis given is very different. In which case I'd think it'd make a lot of sense to try to completely map one onto the other so that both sides of the advice can be cross referenced and found in one source.

    I think I could well be being an idealist with typing theories. Oh well I was accused of rarely expressing 1. I think this is a good example of when I do...
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    You may well be right that the enneagram and the MBTI are fundamentally different. That is however semi irrelevant. If all you can end up with when combining these two results from two different tools is that each of the sixteen MBTI types are then further broken down into enneagram numbers then that's how far it goes. I think that it's a little more involved than that. For one when my father read through the description of a 9 he said it sounded like the description for an INFP. Now it's kinda strange don't you think that I just happen to be an INTP who tests well for F?
    I wouldn't say they are different, only that it'll be hard to integrate them.

    However, I have to disagree than MBTI can be broken down further into Enneagram components. Systems like this don't sit on top of each other, they sit side by side. In general, one who tests 7w8 should never show up as an INTP, just as 1w2 shouldn't either.

    Most INTPs test as 5s because most of the key descriptors from MBTI and Ennegram crossover there. MBTI also assumes a more forced distribution than the Enneagram, meaning that INxPs will tend to test some form of 456-9. This is a flaw with MBTI moreso than the Enneagram (though the lack of 4w9 kind of stuff is a flaw with the Enneagram).

    I guess what I'm saying is that the only place you can really start from is looking at the question - if you want to get to know someone, ask them "Are you introverted?" You can only ask it so many ways... it always means something similar. Whether you model this into INTP with the functional hierarchies, or into the Enneagram with wings... that's up to you... lots of models Just don't forget what was asked!

    (And to reiterate, all models cross over to some degree. Enneagram doesn't translate well because it uses 9 points of interactive themes, where MBTI uses 4 points of traits. MBTI translates to FFM because it FFM uses 5 points of traits.)

  10. #20
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    <Snarky comment>

    Lock up the windmills! We're questing for a grand unifying theory of type!

    </Snarky comment>
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

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