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  1. #11
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    ^Seconded.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #12
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    Default pardon my associative thinking

    These posts are making me think about an executive I work for who is an ENTJ (classic!). After knowing him for a bit, I told him I thought he was an ENTJ, asked if he had ever taken the test and it turned out the company had tested the executives the year before and he was a very strong representive of the type (he conveyed this with pride). I mention this because it is relevant to me that he embraced and identified with the results.

    We work very well together, though I am an INFP, which I have mulled over. What I have come up with so far is that we respect each other's honesty. My willingness to make an argument for an empathetic approach to management appeals to him because he finds the arguments themselves compelling - framed as "if you want to be more effective..." or 'this has failed because of a lack of scope in this approach." As an ENTJ, he has to respect an idea in its presentation (logical persuasion) and its usefullness toward an ENTJs goal of success in order to respond.

    But the most illuminating "explanation" I have for his receptiveness came in casual conversation when our HR director mentioned that ever since he fell in love and got married, he has been a changed man. That his openness is in fact "new to her" and a welcome change contrasted to her past experience of him as a more arrogant, closeminded, pitiless individual.

    I do not find him "open", by the way - he is a strategist and a good one.

    My point is that determining how to meaningfully express romantic love to an ENTJ probably requires less of a focus on a "how" then an understanding that to an ENTJ, the integrity of the expression and its suitability to their pre-determined aims are the key factors for reaching them, period. You may not know precisely what they think about your gesture unless they want you to know, you will be left with what they do. If they give you flowers, you win!

    They are so self-contained and self-referential that it seems doubtful that an "approach" will positively affect the outcome - they will either believe you or not, and they will either want to respond to your advances or not. They are smart enought to anticipate manipulation and ever watchful of being taken in. I imagine you could negatively influence an outcome by demonstrating poor character or vying for dominance, though. Let them keep the control - this is part of their identity. Pushing or forcing emotions on them seems unwise.

    Ultimately, their level of personal happiness may be the deciding factor in receptivity, an element totally outside of another's control.

    The TJs are quite willing to go at it alone, both personally and professionally, a tendency that contributes to their leadership ability and strength of mind and character, but can also inhibit their receptiveness across the board.

    Lawdy, do I ramble . Just wanted to share these thoughts since the type interests me. From a distance, I might add

  3. #13
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    Extraverted Thinking is a function concerned with taking decisions based on objective criteria. In order to act in a Machiavellical way, one must be able to take decisions based on subjective criteria, such as taking into account people's feelings and values to get what you want from them. Considering this, I would say that ENTJ's that try to be Machiavellical to achieve their goals are theoretically at a disadvantage compared to some other types. I would not consider ENTJ's to be typically Machiavellical, although I think that ENTJ's are so when motivated by attaining (social) power. Their drive for power may motivate them strongly to be Machiavellical, but they are theoretically not the strongest at being so.

    I think that ENTJ's default mode is, rather, the opposite of Machiavellical. That is, a direct, straightforward and blunt style of communication that is impersonal in nature and based on an explicit line of reasoning. I think that Machiavelli wrote his book to cater specifically for leaders that are too honest and direct. As such, I would recommend any person trying to communicate with an ENTJ to adopt a logical style if they wish to "connect" more easily with them.

  4. #14
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    Default agreed

    The contribution above exactly matches my experience with the ENTJ executive. He has stated more than once that he is not interested in opinions, only proof. And he has quite bluntly acknowledged his culpability and errors without prompting. Mucho integrity.

  5. #15
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Yes, opinions are just a waste of perfectly good air. What matters is proof.
    Same with procedure, tradition and the like, it's generally just bullshit. What matters is results. In the future, if I had employees, and one of them would prefer to work during night hours dressed in a pink uniform, I would let him! I don't care one bit for stupid Rules of Engagement. It prohibits good outcomes, since every individual is different. I think other ENTJ's understand what I mean by that, since many of us seem to be a wee bit eccentric.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  6. #16
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    I attended our corporate Christmas party on Friday and have a few additional ENTJ executive moments to relay (possibly only interesting to me, but...okay)

    ENTJ is the VP, so while the president (an ESFP) makes the company speech, he stands behind the prez, grinning with confidence, helping him with important details.

    Prez: In 2004, we blah blah blah. This year, we blah blah blah. Last year (he pauses)

    EnTJ: That would be 2007, John.

    Prez: Right, thanks. In 2007....

    And before my partner and I left, he approaches her, shakes her hand, tells her I have a good mind and that I am an asset to the company. Tells her, not me (strategist!).

    My INFJ says she looked him straight in the eye and said "Thank you. And she has a WONDERFUL mind." Polite, firm smile.

    She thinks I am wasted in a corporate atmosephere (grin). Love that girl. But anyhoo, just a few ENTJ gems for the ENTJ readership.

    And...he had a beautiful, confident, intelligent, wealthy wife. Top notch choice for the executive

  7. #17
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Extraverted Thinking is a function concerned with taking decisions based on objective criteria. In order to act in a Machiavellical way, one must be able to take decisions based on subjective criteria, such as taking into account people's feelings and values to get what you want from them. Considering this, I would say that ENTJ's that try to be Machiavellical to achieve their goals are theoretically at a disadvantage compared to some other types. I would not consider ENTJ's to be typically Machiavellical, although I think that ENTJ's are so when motivated by attaining (social) power. Their drive for power may motivate them strongly to be Machiavellical, but they are theoretically not the strongest at being so.

    I think that ENTJ's default mode is, rather, the opposite of Machiavellical. That is, a direct, straightforward and blunt style of communication that is impersonal in nature and based on an explicit line of reasoning. I think that Machiavelli wrote his book to cater specifically for leaders that are too honest and direct. As such, I would recommend any person trying to communicate with an ENTJ to adopt a logical style if they wish to "connect" more easily with them.

    But then again soiceity's lack of tolerance for communicating in a blunt and straightfoward manner, attributing to antisocial tendencies, and ENTJs intense desire for success and getting ahead, and to seek power by all means and above all else, can lead to machievellianism. To put it in a more direct manner, you can;t be a straight dick to climb the coporate ladder

    nevertheless, if you do not want the machievellian label, you can give it to other types. we entps and estps have no problems admitting the need to manipulating situations tp get ahead.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

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