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  1. #21
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I believe that if we were to conduct a poll of a large sample size on people who have gone through a self-discovery process of their MBTI type, that the highest incidence of the number of people who dislike themselves or wanted to be/have a different personality would be highest in the INPs, followed closely by ISFs.

    In general, I believe that informative types (SFs, NPs) will have higher incidence of self-dislike and desire for a different personality than directive types (STs, NJs). Also, the incidence of this preference will be higher in general for Introverts than Extroverts.

    Anybody know of studies related to these hypotheses?

    Any thoughts in general about these hypotheses?
    I think it might be more along the lines of introversion and extroversion. Directive vs informative will actually determine people's like or dislike of others; hence responding to them either directively or informatively.

    I can give you my own informal study in observing the driving needs in the standard temperament matrix:

    Temperament for Dummies
    (Keep in mind, that I'm using the five temperament system, where the interaction styles are known by the original Galen "humor" names, "Informative" is known as "responsive" or "relationship oriented", and "directive" is known as "task-oriented", and the new temperament Supine is Introverted/Responsive, while Phlegmatic is now moderate in both scales. For the sake of comparison, you can just merge those two temperaments back together; both fitting the ISF/INP interaction style. Also, Melancholy=IST/INJ, Choleric=EST/ENJ and Sanguine=ESF/ENP. The Keirseyan temperament groupings SJ/SP/NF/NT also loosely correspond, with cooperative/pragmatic as expressiveness, and structure/motive as responsiveness, so those can be factored in people's self or others image as well).
    ------
    Introversion itself seems to be energized by fear of rejection (or criticism and feelings of inadequacy), which is a common feature of the introverted temperaments [in the APS descriptions]. How a this leads a person to respond to people (wanting or not wanting to be approached by others) is determined by the driving need of the task/relationship scale.
    Extroversion seems to be energized by a need for attention (or recognition of adequacy). What the person does with this as he approaches people (relate to or use them) again depends on task/relationship.
    Relationship-oriented behavior is energized by the need for acceptance (or recognition of worth). How they try to gain this acceptance (make the first move towards others or wish others would make the first move) is determined by E/I.
    Task-oriented behavior is energized by distrust of others (the way others do things, etc). What the person does with this distrust (fear or dominate others) is determined by E/I.

    So fear of rejection plus distrust of others equals the introverted-task oriented rejection of others first and fear of the unknown. (Melancholy)
    The fear of rejection plus the need for acceptance equals the introverted-relationship oriented shyness, and desire to serve others. (Supine)
    The need of attention plus the need of acceptance causes one to be extroverted and relationship oriented, and accept and charm everyone and be the life of the party (and still maintain a fear of rejection, but unlike the introverts, this is not the primary drive). (Sanguine)
    The need for attention plus the distrust of others causes one to be extroverted and task oriented, and be outgoing to only use others for his own achievements. (Choleric)

    So "self-image", and "others-image" are also involved. Introverts, from the descriptions, tend to have low self-esteem. They doubt their worth, either as a person (Inclusion/Affection), or in their capabilities or adequacy (Control). Hence, they are afraid to express, fearing their inadequacy will be revealed. Extroverts tend to have a higher self-image. They have the confidence to charm or use people (I/A), or lead and control them (C), so they freely express to them with no problem. They believe they have the adequacy; they just want others to recognize it.
    Task-oriented people will have a lower image of others. They do not trust them, or value them; either who they are (I/A), or what they do (C). So they will not want interaction from others. Relationship-oriented people will value others, and hence want them for who they are, and to gain acceptance from them for their own worth (I/A), or will depend on them in some way in what they do (C).
    Hence, the Melancholy tends not to like himself OR others, and thus rejects others figuring they reject him anyway; and likes solitude to immerse himself in his own world of thinking and tasks, or at least his own sphere of control (family, etc). The Choleric does like himself, and people are not liked as people, but as "objects", as APS describes it. So he will only deal with them according to his own terms. The Sanguine likes himself and likes others, and hence is very involved with people for both their own and his own sake. Liking who people are does give him a bit of vulnerability that the Choleric does not have, so the Sanguine has a fear of rejection similar to the introverts. His self esteem can crash if rejected. However, he will have more of a confidence to keep trying to win others acceptance and recognition. So he will bounce or "swing" back to his expressive, confident self rather quickly. The Supine is described as seeing worth in everyone else, but not himself. So he tries to serve others to gain acceptance. He has doubly the fear of others, being both introverted (fear of exposed inadequacy and hence, rejection or criticism), and needing people's acceptance (which makes one vulnerable to them) on top of it! The Phlegmatics, again, can just take people or leave them.

    The familiar concept of "I'M OK; YOU'RE OK" (the expression being the example of the most "healthy" attitude) can thus be paired with the five temperaments:
    Sanguine: "I'm OK; You're OK"
    Melancholy: "I'm NOT OK; You're NOT OK"
    Choleric: "I'm OK; You're NOT OK"
    Supine: You're OK; I'm NOT OK
    Phlegmatic: "I'm whatever; you're whatever"

    All of this would make fear, vs. need of attention, and distrust vs. need of acceptance the "root of personality". These often are described as the basis of much of human behavior. So it would make sense that they would be the real root of temperament. These could be further summed up as "[Self]-Confidence" and "[others] reliance". The person with self confidence will believe in his worth and express to others to gain recognition of it. The person with less self-confidence will fear failure and rejection of some sort, and thus express less. The person who relies on others will stake his worth on others in some way. The person who does not rely on others will be independent, and basically see others as intruding on their space.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  2. #22
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    wow that's very interesting...thanks eric
    and completely accurate for me as a sanguine
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  3. #23
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Extraverts simply externalize their unhappiness and project it onto other people as the cause.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Yea I think his point still stands. Extraverts have a nasty habit of projecting their self dislike and opinions onto others when thing get a little too negative.
    That's curious because we seem to have a forum full of introverts projecting their self-dislike onto extroverts.

    According to Jung, an extrovert projects their most vile thoughts towards themselves and introverts project the worst outside of themselves.

    Was that really me? by Naomi Quenck goes into this in detail and how our inferior function (introverted for extroverts and extroverted for introverts) can hijack our psyche for extended periods of time. I wonder if some of personality problems people describe here are the results of an tertiary and inferior function enslaving the dominant functions obscuring real type. People can live like this for years, it's not just a momentary eclipse.

    Good post, Eric! Is that your website?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #24
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    ISF, INT, EST, ENF = self dislike
    ENT, ESF, INF, IST = self like
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #25
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    ^^ disagree

    caring what others think of you...doesn't mean you have the inclination towards self dislike...imo
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #26
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    That's curious because we seem to have a forum full of introverts projecting their self-dislike onto extroverts.

    According to Jung, an extrovert projects their most vile thoughts towards themselves and introverts project the worst outside of themselves.

    Was that really me? by Naomi Quenck goes into this in detail and how our inferior function (introverted for extroverts and extroverted for introverts) can hijack our psyche for extended periods of time. I wonder if some of personality problems people describe here are the results of an tertiary and inferior function enslaving the dominant functions obscuring real type. People can live like this for years, it's not just a momentary eclipse.

    Good post, Eric! Is that your website?
    I think it's a matter of degrees to some extent. Introverts generally don't have as great an ability with expressing themselves emotionally as well as extroverts. Most notably in the sense of consistency. Maturity as I'm sure you alluded to somewhere there in your post is also another factor. I think it works on somewhat of a curve.

    At first introverts if they're somewhat mature will try and internalize these things and detach from others. Extroverts are more likely to try and seek out others to nip it in the bud and try and override their discomfort. I think what Synarch was trying to convey was more along the lines of conscious decision making.

    When it's more raw and intense I'm sure introverts would be somewhat deadlier in terms of projection, and extroverts would turn around and be more introspective and harsh. Which the second part of your post did a good job of explaining.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    A thought - could those with less common personalities be more prone to self-dislike? They would certainly be receiving more messages that there was somethin "wrong" with them.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #28
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    A thought - could those with less common personalities be more prone to self-dislike? They would certainly be receiving more messages that there was somethin "wrong" with them.
    Definitely, but the same reasons could cause them to go on a more narcissistic bent. I've alternated between both ends pretty frequently. I would venture to say that I gravitate more towards the latter (in a healthy manner, still likable).
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  9. #29
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    ^^ that's interesting too anja
    and yeah...i think spending too much time with people completely different then you...people who are critical of you for not being like them...could certainly diminish your self concept
    i'm in that situation quite frequently...and it leaves me feeling misunderstood...not really unhappy with myself...due to my positive outlook i guess...but i could see how that could be felt by someone more comfortable with negative emotions.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  10. #30
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    I think it's a matter of degrees to some extent. Introverts generally don't have as great an ability with expressing themselves emotionally as well as extroverts. Most notably in the sense of consistency. Maturity as I'm sure you alluded to somewhere there in your post is also another factor. I think it works on somewhat of a curve.
    I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Some extroverts aren't comfortable expressing themselves emotionally either. Do you mean being emotionally effusive or revealing how they feel? Do you group being emotionally expressive as a sign of extroversion?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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