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  1. #11
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    My father said God is indifferent.
    Humans are insects to Him.

    An error in logic.
    The mirror does not turn the image around
    .
    This is beautifully said.

  2. #12
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kora View Post
    Are you talking about what is measurable?
    The object of the measure does not measure.
    The subject is the measure.

    Interpretation precedes sight.

    As you said.

  3. #13
    Broud Balestinian G-Virus's Avatar
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    Do any Objective Truths, with a big T, exist out there?

    I can only think of Cogito ergo Sum.
    Seek freedom and become captive of your desires, seek discipline and find your liberty.

    "If you go looking for something in particular, your chances of finding it are very bad, because of all the things in the world, you're only looking for one of them. If you go looking for anything at all, your chances of finding it are very good, because of all the things in the world, you're sure to find some of them."

  4. #14
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    The "cogito" assumes a single-I, or ego.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  5. #15
    Broud Balestinian G-Virus's Avatar
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    Then we are back at the drawing board.
    Seek freedom and become captive of your desires, seek discipline and find your liberty.

    "If you go looking for something in particular, your chances of finding it are very bad, because of all the things in the world, you're only looking for one of them. If you go looking for anything at all, your chances of finding it are very good, because of all the things in the world, you're sure to find some of them."

  6. #16
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    "Objective" and "subjective" are sometimes used to describe both the functions themselves, and where they were used. I was trying specifically to understand how they shaped directing and informing communications in the eight three letter groups (STJ, SFP, etc) that Keirsey had identified. So I began paralleling things up along the line of subjective and objective. (I had thought that "directing" communications, such as S and T together might have had to do with "objectivity". Turned out it might work to some extent for judging functions, but it seems for perception it is the opposite).

    "extraverted attitudes" (outside use) are considered "objective", while introverted attitudes are considered "subjective", because they are taking place within the person. Jung had originally defined the attitudes as being focused on "the object" and "the subject". (For perception, the attitude is the "source" it is taken from, and for judgment, it is the source of the "standard" it is based in, and in some descriptions, the "realm" it is used in).

    Thinking is also frequently condsidered "objective", based on logic and facts, while Feeling is considered subjective "values".

    Sensing (concrete perception) is also occasionally considered more "objective", while iNtuiting (abstract) is considered subjective, because it involves the person drawing from patterns and stuff.

    Then, perception in itself can be considered objective, because it is taking information (of an object) in, while judgment is what the subject does with the information.

    With this:
    Objective processing=Perception (P)
    Subjective processing=Judgment (J)
    Objective data=concreteness (S) or logic (T)
    Subjective data=abstractness (N) or value (F)
    Objective source=external (E)
    Subjective source=internal (I)

    Objective processing of Objective data from Objective source (OOO): Se
    Objective processing of Objective data from Subjective source (OOS): Si
    Objective processing of Subjective data from Objective source (OSO): Ne
    Objective processing of Subjective data from Subjective source (OSS): Ni
    Subjective processing of Objective data from Objective source (SOO): Te
    Subjective processing of Objective data from Subjective source (SOS): Ti
    Subjective processing of Subjective data from Objective source (SSO): Fe
    Subjective processing of Subjective data from Subjective source (SSS): Fi

    This basically reduces the four dichotomies down to one!
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  7. #17
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Eric, why did you have to spoil my pleasure at reading these gnomic utterances with your lengthy post? *sigh*

    I was about to suggest it be renamed "The Aphorism Thread" - it was devloping a beautiful symmetry and Zen-like logic all of its own :sad:

  8. #18
    Senior Member Kora's Avatar
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    @Eric B: You have a very interesting theory, but does that make ESTPs and ESFPs the most objective types? From a subjective source, it sounds... weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The object of the measure does not measure.
    The subject is the measure.

    Interpretation precedes sight.

    As you said.
    Then only computers could be truly objective/Objectivity doesn't exist at all. Interesting.
    5w4 - Idiosyncratic/Leisurely/Dramatic
    It's the devil's way now.

  9. #19
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Objectivity could exist if a person managed to find a subject to which they felt very little emotional connection I suppose.

    Or if you want to get into it- perhaps you could be objective about a situation that is human but you are not connected with the humans involved.

    Of course, the question would be- are ideas of morality and justice subjective? In which case, most forms of human observation- with the rare exceptions of some documentary photographers- would be subjective.

    For instance, this photograph is objectively taken, but generally provokes a subjective response in the viewer (or objective, depending on how you're looking at it- if identification with the fact that human suffering could affect any of us could be considered objective- as it is the straight truth with no tinting, the response is objective as well)

    Cooking from a recipe book is objective- cooking without a recipe is subjective. Showing what's there, or merely following instructions is objective- an inclusion of passion subjectifies it up, it seems.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #20

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    I can usually follow wildcat, but here I am grasping at straws.

    A few thoughts occurred to me regarding his OP.

    1) The objectivity of "pure thought." --that is thought without error or "contamination," a perceptions of pure truths that perhaps finds codification in mathematics.

    There are a few issues here...

    Is math really the "universal language?"

    Is it possible our mathematics is simply our mathematics and that it is based on the visceral notions brought forth by the human mind embodied in a human body?

    But since the body is brought forth through nature, and subject to its constraints, is it merely a reflection of the objectivity of nature?

    Then what about dance, sport, music, and other forms connected to this visceral nature? Is it as objective as thought?

    Is objectivity, a perception of the visceral without judgment or contamination? --a seeming contradiction, as this is often very emotion laden.

    2) Our "thoughts" are illusions. They are what we perceive after our brain/body has done what it has done to create the thoughts. Thoughts are echoes of our own biological processes.

    There is actually a large fraction of a second between when an event actually occurs and when we perceive it to occur. In this delay, our brains do a sort of perceptual "pipelining," to keep our senses of time coherent.

    Again, I come to the same questions. Does objectivity come from a tacit trust of our instincts?--the very things we consider so "subjective?"

    3) Many religious people believe that we (or our souls) are reflections of God. As a scientifically minded person, we can look at our make-up and see how we are similar to (even made up of) our environment.

    This reflection of the divine...does it give us objectivity?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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