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  1. #41
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    No, in response to the question. What I'm saying is that your primary function is the function used more than any other by the individual. I thought that was very clear!

    Maybe I am saying what Socionics was "years ago," if they removed the distinction from e/i in functions, and then reversed that later. You tell me, I wasn't up on Socionics in the 70s. I did say "tied to no system I'm aware of."
    I am in agreement with your assertion that the dominant funciton is the most noticeable regardless of attitude, however you should know that your theory is far from new. It's Socionics. Your theory reverses the code and shows the functions for introverts in reverse of MB theory. It has always been argued that Socionics got it right in how Jung would have saw the function order as well. It has only been the past two to three years that Socionics began using their new codes LIE, ILI, etc... Prior to that, it was the reason that Socionics showed the final code as a small letter "j/p" since it was the dominant function that was observed by an onlooker, regardless of being extraverted or introverted.

  2. #42
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    ^No his theory is worse than socionics because it throws out the distinction between extroverted and introverted functions.

    There are only really 8 types in his system.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    ^No his theory is worse than socionics because it throws out the distinction between extroverted and introverted functions.

    There are only really 8 types in his system.
    Eight function orders, 16 types, and you know it. You must be claiming that a function order totally defines a person, which is, of course, nonsense.

    As I've already said, so I won't post this in my thread: It describes the similarities between INTP and ENTP for example a lot better than some other made up crap. Fact of the matter is, P introverts are more concerned with...Guess what: PERCEIVING. They shouldn't have a Judging function as their dominant.

  4. #44
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Flak, when I do post, you'll see how I and E are for real.
    Though it's trning out to be a way enormous project.

    I'm thinking now it might be good to just post the half on Judgment of Ps and Js then get to the perception half later.
    To give you all time to digest the first half before I post the second -- parcel it out so it's not overwhelming.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Flak, when I do post, you'll see how I and E are for real.
    I know they're for real, but not in the bullshit traditional sense.

  6. #46
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Default The P and J muddling: Introduction, How to Read and Holistic

    In light of the dusting of threads regarding the confusion behind the P and J spectrum, and my own distaste -- amplified by those threads -- for the confusion, I've decided to compile as comprehensive a reparation as I can.
    I most of my explanations, I provide a formula via which the reader has the responsibility of extruding the implications of, or if not that, an analogy to be used in a similar way. For the sake of ensuring comprehension (which is, after all, the entire point of this thread) I'll walk you through a few examples. I haven't yet decided how I'm going to do it, so I doubt any of the examples will have much consistency in delivery.

    Fret not, as this kind of variety is actually a beneficial side-effect of my flavor of the Ne Ti combination. The stress will be on different subjects.

    Now I'd first like to explain what exactly J and P mean.
    For many of you this part is already known; it's rather simple.
    For a type with the P digit, the preferred Perceiving faculty is extraverted, leaving the Judgement introverted.
    For a type with the J digit, the preferred Judging faculty is extraverted leaving the Perception introverted.

    Now while it's understood that this is the way it works, it's not always understood why. The trouble here is that most don't really understand introversion and extraversion, and ultimately, that misunderstanding is what causes the greatest amount of confusion here.

    To be introverted is to orient oneself by their subjectively derived ideals. Extraversion, by contrast appeals to one or more objects.

    In other words, the environment has no effect on the introverted ideal until extraverted action takes place. The ideal is pure. The world is not, however.
    Introversion responds to the self.
    This is why, so often, Introverted Sensing types are so aware of their own actions. One Si type I know will interrupt himself mid-sentence to correct a date, even when the number has no pertinence to the topic at hand.
    Or rather to the information it seems they're trying to convey. And in truth, they are trying to convey it, but for their own sake, they need to be sure they've tracked and documented everything correctly. So they do have a message, but it can be lost in the garble of sensations they labor so hard to absorb after the fact.

    Responding to the self is also the reason for delayed reaction, or no reaction at all. Introverts have a more difficult time reacting to the environment quickly. This is because much has happened and the self needs to be acclimated, before any further action can take place.
    Extraverts on the other hand are more comfortable with the environment (which is why we call them that -- if they weren't we'd call them introverts) and can respond more quickly.

    There are detriments and benefits to either side (despite what BlueWing will have you think), which I won't go into at this point. Perhaps later as I write I'll find a place to put them in, but for now, I'd like to avoid that.

    So what basically happens is, extraverted action, taken by the individual as a response to, or participation with the environment. From there, the individual's action has to be worked into the inner world. Obviously it's not a *knock knock* world. That's just a figure of speech.

    I'll be more specific.

    This is a run-down of the Judgement functions at work.
    You'll have to cut me a little bit of slack here. I jump around. You'll see why.

  7. #47
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Default Judgement

    For a Ti type, there is a vast inner standard of rationale on which gadgets are built, maps are drawn, and concepts are molded. These things aren't real in the physical sense, but their etherial imaginative 'existence' is something on which external understanding and competence are contingent.
    It's easiest for this form of Judgement to work with extraverted perception because it deals, most commonly with worldly events -- the introverted aspect constitutes "what I think ______" with the underlined section filled by anything from "would work" to "will happen" to "won't fit."
    It's able to deal with the situation, by removing the self from it.
    An introverted perception can still be dealt with by introverted Judgement, but these perceptions are far too simplistic and already polished up according to some ideal.


    Extraverted Thinking has much greater trouble keeping track of what's happening in the world than Ti. The trick for Ti though, is that it's not actually the Ti that's keeping track of anything all. It's the Extraverted Perception. Extraverted Thinking, in all its might and courage, could never attempt to champion every bit of minutia brought in by broad-scope perception. A powerful function indeed, but when two matching forces are pit in opposing directions, the result is exhaustion without movement.
    So thinking turns inward for its perceptions.

    Extraverted Thinking would more quickly accomplish by random act (because it doesn't perceive first) than understand and respond. If a Te is very extraverted, they'll assert and assert and assert a bunch of nothing, with no real structure -- just determination.

    At this point I urge everyone to remember that Thinking is more a decisive faculty (even introverted) than an organizational one. For Ti, organized understanding happens by logical decisiveness. Logic is not the cornerstone of Thinking. Methodology is. Logic happens to be a preferred method of many Thinkers -- especially the ones in Kiersey's Rational group, and to be sure, most methods are built on logic.
    But thinking is not the equivalent of logical action in human mind -- it just does a splendid job employing it. Better than all the other processes by an exponential margin. Similarly to the utilization of emotion by Feeling.
    I'll get into that later.

    Te, has potential to be as analytic, solidly constructed and practiced as Ti. This of course, is scarcely achieved except without firm introverted perception.

    The role of Introverted Perception in the Te type, is to keep the self aware of the results of Te. How otherwise can Te make a deeper evaluation of the situation? Extraverted Perception is far too flighty to cater to Te's already anxious agenda. Too much action going on to make any kind of a useful evaluation. And without that evaluation, the agenda is slowed ("inefficiency is not tolerated around here." -- a quote from a prospective employer of mine, who was undoubtedly Te), so the Te who shows restraint enough to observe and take care to check the status of his projects and where they're to go will (and frequently do) build something up form virtually nothing very quickly.

    In Joe Butt's description of the ENTJ he mentions some odd thing about the ENTJ being astonished at their rise to the top. This is very plausible -- very often their rise amounts from simply loyalty, the result of Thinking's determination, to a project what starts by happy accident.


    For an Fi type there is a similar world to that of a Ti, one which I have more than a bit of trouble identifying with. In any case, the result is, of course, the individuals' Feeling based judgement on "what I feel _____" with the blank to be replaced with things like "he should have said" or even "I should have said/done"
    These decisions are made based on the emotions experienced by perception. You might even say that Perception actually senses the emotions, and Feeling just decides based on that, or you might say, Perception simply gathers the facts, and Feeling is happening when emotions are being experienced. I tend to prefer the former, but in the end, it doesn't really matter. The essential point is, detailed situational observation takes place, and is reasoned out according to the individual's standard of emotive valuation.
    These standards may or may not be methodically defined -- depending on the level of Thinking employed -- but will always be the result of a feeling.

    It all hinges on the nuance of the situation. And Feeling is as directive and strict on its Extraverted Perceiving workhorse as Thinking it (despite the tough/soft standards typically surrounding these two).
    By this I mean, Fi will choose to ignore 'irrelevant' aspects of a situation so that it can more strongly focus the Extraverted Perceiving, the same way Ti would. And at the flip of an unhappy coin, the entire interest can be lost. Again, nuance is of importance.
    Just the same, interest can be regained through the right works. This can make the Fi user resourceful, if they have a vested interest.


    On that note, both camps of Introverted Judgement will search for a way -- either by their own means, or by what BW would undoubtedly call 'desperate, reckless Extraverted Perceiving experiments' -- to rectify the situation to their individual goal. This of course takes the form of deliberate alteration of the situation.
    And so, in turn P's are often marked as manipulative. And they will use others as lab rats.
    Introverted judgement, while dependent on the situation for its validity and information, has less interest in maintaining the fidelity and structure of that situation, if it suits its goal.
    And the goal of introverted judgement is not always (the better the Introverted Judger, the moreso this is true) overtly defined. It can be, and even when it's not, it can be deduced based on the individual's action.


    It pays to keep a very very close eye on these differences of introverted and extraverted judgement:

    Concerning (perceived) reliability, and excluding forgetfulness -- a majorly muddled area in the P and J muddling;
    - The P is unreliable because he has troubled defining his plans or feelings outwardly, making them at best, hard to read, and causes misunderstanding resulting in confusion in collaboration
    - The J is unreliable in the case of deliberate betrayal/disobedience or lying
    - Both P and J have potential to, and very well might lie about their plans, and might, even more frighteningly be fiendishly adept at concealing their trickery, making them appear only unreliable, when in fact it was their plan all along to deceive and betray


    The inescapable fact is that the Introverted aspect of Judgement makes it ultimately impervious to the onlooker, since it's not defined by external measures -- only depends on them.
    That's why a P might promise they're going to do something, but might only get half way there. They hadn't sufficiently and effectively defined their objectives to the world.
    Of course we know it's not as if Ps are incapable of defining their ends to the world, it's just easier not to, so they frequently don't.

    Js on the other hand plan to do precisely what they say. It's hard not to. They may be able to show restraint in expressing their goal, so then might appear unpredictable, a situation which might confuse the J into thinking they are a P. Similarly, they might even plan to lie which, given the unreliable vocabulary acumen of Meyers, Briggs, and all their followers, might also trick the J into assuming the role of P, but this is not the case. That J who lied is actually still defining their plan/feelings via the environment; in the negative.


    In terms of organizing one's items and their affairs, Tes are more conventional.
    Extraverted Judgement attaches itself to the object -- it employs the object as its measuring stick. Its decider.
    What has made itself readily available is the preferred metric of Te.
    Because of this, when organization is in question, the Tes prefer to use what's made itself available. Common (or obvious) rationale in their filing system.
    Additionally, we should note that Tes are likely to be more adept at quickly organizing, as their introverted perception can choose (arbitrarily) a single dimension of the objects to be organized, and attend only that one dimension, making the perception much quicker, which makes deciding which cubby to place the parcel in faster.

    TPs on the other hand, perception being extroverted will continue to notice newer, potentially easier dimensions which could be used to decide where the object goes. Obviously, the Ti then has to get used to the new idea that Pe just acquired. Since there's such a flood of newer and newer perceptions, and the method for organizing changes, the TP is left with a choice: To start over, or to implement the new on top of the old.
    As experience teaches the TP, the latter is much easier, and so the TP who does bother to organize -- many, if not most, become so frustrated by their ineptitude in the field that they give up entirely, and instead continue to enhance their Perceptive ability, and individual problem solving and learn to work around and within the chaos -- will rarely appear organized, because of the layers of sediment style of order they force themselves into.

    It should be noted that a very very very staunch majority of what is J, regarding organization, is in closer affinity with TJ. Fe is not a great organizer.
    Fs, rely entirely on their perception to maintain organization, as Feeling is not capable of methodology.
    For this reason, SFJs are the only ones who can hold their own in this arena.
    Neither introverted intuition nor Introverted Sensing lend themselves well to organization outright. SFJs are better because Sensation will, as with the TJs be able to pick up on the necessary ingredients for making the decision. It will likely take a while for the SFJ to get used to the system, but once they do, it will be such an easy task that they will be able to successfully and accurately do it even while talking on the phone or to a co-worker... basically they'll be able to put their mind to other things once the system has embedded itself into the unconscious perception.
    NFJs are far worse, because they lack the attention to concrete detail. Typically they're not very organized spatially, but Ni lends itself just fine to remembering appointments, and Fe tries not to stand anyone up.

    FPs are markedly horrible at organizing. Extraverted perception rises the same problems it does with the TPs, but the FP doesn't even systematize.
    They depend on those functions which they have trouble with to do it. This is not to say however, that an FP can't organize. FPs might do fine if what they want necessitates it -- Thinking will step in, or if not that, then they'll probably be able to enlist a TJ to help them.

  8. #48
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Perception will be put up in one of the following few days.

    Additionally, questions on anything above are welcomed -- if anything is even slightly unclear, don't hesitate to ask.

  9. #49
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Also, I'm going to amend a lot of the organization section of the post.
    I'm dissatisfied with the way it's written, and there's more to it than that but I'm leaving it up because it can still be helpful and revealing.

  10. #50
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    You can probably guess every which way I would disagree with you (Primarily related to using the 8-function model), but specifically:

    When you say that introverts react slower to the environment, do you mean adapt more slowly? I think you do. Once comfortable in an environment, the introvert is just as quick as the extrovert, and perhaps more at ease, because the extrovert seems to always want to "extend borders" so to speak.

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