# Thread: The P and J Muddling

1. Originally Posted by dissonance
Nocap -- this is quite an issue, do you agree?

Maybe you could work some function definitions into your enlightening post...

I could do it if you don't want to...
As a matter of fact, that's all I've gotten to so far.

I haven't even built the functions into their J and P categories yet.

I wouldn't be able to write this thing without doing it.

2. Please no functions definitions by diss @nocap

Else, my beautiful little world is going to hell

3. Originally Posted by entropie
Please no functions definitions by diss @nocap

Else, my beautiful little world is going to hell
Yeah, nocap is a better/more concise writer than I, so I was hoping he'd do it

4. Originally Posted by dissonance
Hmm..... watch out for that, though. None of the tests are weighted correctly (in fact, I don't know if I've even seen a weighted test at all), and no one can accurately answer all the questions.

I think this is the reason so many people get confused -- they'll score really high on one function but they really prefer it in the opposite direction, or they might attribute T things to N things and vice versa...

The last test I took (the new cogprocesses one), I scored highest on Ti... but I know it's not in the same ballpark of usage as my Ni.
I absolutely agree with the latter portion that we may misunderstand the question(s) being asked or infer it to have a different connotation. However as for your former statement, I think it's safe to say that even if you are taking a test that merely results in dichotomy selections, you should still result in your dominant function (ie introversion/thinking=Ti). Furthermore if you consistently test the same way then it's safe to say that you are most likely that function. After that, it may be a free-for-all even with the auxiliary function. When I hear people say that they're introverts but score higher on their auxiliary, I am always perplexed. If you're scoring higher on any extraverted function then you are most likely an extravert. Myers-Briggs says however it's usually introverted men who confuse themselves as extraverts more than the other way around.

5. Originally Posted by Jack Flak
To question mark: Yeah, what dissonance said. Considering the fact that he and I almost never agree on type shit, you better listen.

Function tests don't tell you what you're doing with your brain more often, only what you think you're good at. To top it off, the test questions can be odd, and the functions themselves are poorly defined.
Whoa.... who ever said anything about function tests? I have always argued it's the worse means of determining type and the results will constantly change because they can only render which function you may be using at the present based on most likely a need to adapt to your environment or whatever has your attention at the time. I could take one of them today and actually come up with some extraverted function if I answered the questions honestly.

6. Apparently I did not make myself clear so let me recapitulate that my post coincides with my original statement that may have confused “whatever”. The whole point being made is that any discussion of dichotomies is rudimentary, however when we focus on J/P in particular. As Linda V. Berens says that if we spend too much time talking about J, before long we're really talking about SJ (extreme SJ!)... and if we spend too much time talking about P, we're really talking about NP (extreme NP!). So it's not good to single out and focus on J/P alone for drawing lots of Type conclusions.

MBTI Practitioner, Vicky Jo also reminds that whenever she see’s a conversation deteriorate to the point that J and P are the only letters being discussed, then she realizes that the discussion is not about type theory anymore, but a discussion of bias and stereotype. Vicky Jo says that clearly the participants don't know enough about type theory overall to keep the conversation going properly.

This is not a slam against Nocapszy, but just an observation over the years that discussions of type using rudimentary dichotomies in general means that there remains a great deal of learning to do. Nocaps I hope this has not discouraged you from moving forward with your original intent for this thread, so back on point.

7. Originally Posted by "?"
MBTI Practitioner, Vicky Jo also reminds that whenever she see’s a conversation deteriorate to the point that J and P are the only letters being discussed, then she realizes that the discussion is not about type theory anymore, but a discussion of bias and stereotype. Vicky Jo says that clearly the participants don't know enough about type theory overall to keep the conversation going properly.
Well, that's because people, and especially MBTI Practitioners, don't understand what Perceiving and Judging mean.

8. Originally Posted by Jack Flak
Well, that's because people, and especially MBTI Practitioners, don't understand what Perceiving and Judging mean.
How about putting it this way, giving J/P so much attention for introverts is no difference that focusing on the auxiliary function Ti/Fi for extraverts. What would be the point? Ti/Fi is important but why would an EP type give it so much attention. That is exactly what you do when you allude to J/P, particularly as it pertains to introverted types.

9. Originally Posted by "?"
How about putting it this way, giving J/P so much attention for introverts is no difference that focusing on the auxiliary function Ti/Fi for extraverts. What would be the point? Ti/Fi is important but why would an EP type give it so much attention. That is exactly what you do when you allude to J/P, particularly as it pertains to introverted types.
Uhhh my point being that Introverted Ps shouldn't have a J function as their primary function. See sig.

10. Originally Posted by "?"
I absolutely agree with the latter portion that we may misunderstand the question(s) being asked or infer it to have a different connotation. However as for your former statement, I think it's safe to say that even if you are taking a test that merely results in dichotomy selections, you should still result in your dominant function (ie introversion/thinking=Ti). Furthermore if you consistently test the same way then it's safe to say that you are most likely that function.
Take a lesson boys and girls:
This is the kind of thinking that necessitates the gargantuan post I'm still working on.

If the testing is initially wrong, then consistency means it's consistently wrong.
An ITS ought to know that...

I agree that testing should result in the correct function, I can say with a great amount of confidence (being a victim myself) that it doesn't happen empirically.

I was originally tested as ISTP. I am not an ISTP.

The point dissonance was making was that if the questions are written in a way that the user thinks they understand, they will answer it, and (ideally) accurately so, to their understanding. However, if their assumption of the intended meaning differs from the actual intended meaning of only a single word, the question, given the boolean logic of the tests, will misrepresent the person. I emphasize the factor of idyllic violation, because people do and consistently observe themselves incorrectly.
Especially E__Ps, who, often without even knowing it, will lie or just make things up, even believing these things themselves.
Aside from that that, I find a great many people would rather have an answer, than the right answer, which almost invariably discourages further investigation. Apply this principle to introspection, and you'll have, with certainty, a lot of people who, even providing they do understand the question, will still not be able to answer accurately, because they have bad information.

After that, it may be a free-for-all even with the auxiliary function. When I hear people say that they're introverts but score higher on their auxiliary, I am always perplexed. If you're scoring higher on any extraverted function then you are most likely an extravert.
Ha!
So an INTJ who has 25% Si, 35% and 40% Te ought to be an ENTJ then?

#### Posting Permissions

• You may not post new threads
• You may not post replies
• You may not post attachments
• You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO