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The P and J Muddling

Nocapszy

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Nocap -- this is quite an issue, do you agree?

Maybe you could work some function definitions into your enlightening post...

I could do it if you don't want to...

As a matter of fact, that's all I've gotten to so far.

I haven't even built the functions into their J and P categories yet.

I wouldn't be able to write this thing without doing it.
 

entropie

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Please no functions definitions by diss @nocap

Else, my beautiful little world is going to hell :D
 

"?"

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Hmm..... watch out for that, though. None of the tests are weighted correctly (in fact, I don't know if I've even seen a weighted test at all), and no one can accurately answer all the questions.

I think this is the reason so many people get confused -- they'll score really high on one function but they really prefer it in the opposite direction, or they might attribute T things to N things and vice versa...

The last test I took (the new cogprocesses one), I scored highest on Ti... but I know it's not in the same ballpark of usage as my Ni.
I absolutely agree with the latter portion that we may misunderstand the question(s) being asked or infer it to have a different connotation. However as for your former statement, I think it's safe to say that even if you are taking a test that merely results in dichotomy selections, you should still result in your dominant function (ie introversion/thinking=Ti). Furthermore if you consistently test the same way then it's safe to say that you are most likely that function. After that, it may be a free-for-all even with the auxiliary function. When I hear people say that they're introverts but score higher on their auxiliary, I am always perplexed. If you're scoring higher on any extraverted function then you are most likely an extravert. Myers-Briggs says however it's usually introverted men who confuse themselves as extraverts more than the other way around.
 

"?"

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To question mark: Yeah, what dissonance said. Considering the fact that he and I almost never agree on type shit, you better listen.

Function tests don't tell you what you're doing with your brain more often, only what you think you're good at. To top it off, the test questions can be odd, and the functions themselves are poorly defined.
Whoa.... who ever said anything about function tests? I have always argued it's the worse means of determining type and the results will constantly change because they can only render which function you may be using at the present based on most likely a need to adapt to your environment or whatever has your attention at the time. I could take one of them today and actually come up with some extraverted function if I answered the questions honestly.
 

"?"

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Apparently I did not make myself clear so let me recapitulate that my post coincides with my original statement that may have confused “whatever”. The whole point being made is that any discussion of dichotomies is rudimentary, however when we focus on J/P in particular. As Linda V. Berens says that if we spend too much time talking about J, before long we're really talking about SJ (extreme SJ!)... and if we spend too much time talking about P, we're really talking about NP (extreme NP!). So it's not good to single out and focus on J/P alone for drawing lots of Type conclusions.

MBTI Practitioner, Vicky Jo also reminds that whenever she see’s a conversation deteriorate to the point that J and P are the only letters being discussed, then she realizes that the discussion is not about type theory anymore, but a discussion of bias and stereotype. Vicky Jo says that clearly the participants don't know enough about type theory overall to keep the conversation going properly.

This is not a slam against Nocapszy, but just an observation over the years that discussions of type using rudimentary dichotomies in general means that there remains a great deal of learning to do. Nocaps I hope this has not discouraged you from moving forward with your original intent for this thread, so back on point.
 

Jack Flak

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MBTI Practitioner, Vicky Jo also reminds that whenever she see’s a conversation deteriorate to the point that J and P are the only letters being discussed, then she realizes that the discussion is not about type theory anymore, but a discussion of bias and stereotype. Vicky Jo says that clearly the participants don't know enough about type theory overall to keep the conversation going properly.
Well, that's because people, and especially MBTI Practitioners, don't understand what Perceiving and Judging mean.
 

"?"

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Well, that's because people, and especially MBTI Practitioners, don't understand what Perceiving and Judging mean.
How about putting it this way, giving J/P so much attention for introverts is no difference that focusing on the auxiliary function Ti/Fi for extraverts. What would be the point? Ti/Fi is important but why would an EP type give it so much attention. That is exactly what you do when you allude to J/P, particularly as it pertains to introverted types.
 

Jack Flak

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How about putting it this way, giving J/P so much attention for introverts is no difference that focusing on the auxiliary function Ti/Fi for extraverts. What would be the point? Ti/Fi is important but why would an EP type give it so much attention. That is exactly what you do when you allude to J/P, particularly as it pertains to introverted types.
Uhhh my point being that Introverted Ps shouldn't have a J function as their primary function. See sig.
 

Nocapszy

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I absolutely agree with the latter portion that we may misunderstand the question(s) being asked or infer it to have a different connotation. However as for your former statement, I think it's safe to say that even if you are taking a test that merely results in dichotomy selections, you should still result in your dominant function (ie introversion/thinking=Ti). Furthermore if you consistently test the same way then it's safe to say that you are most likely that function.
Take a lesson boys and girls:
This is the kind of thinking that necessitates the gargantuan post I'm still working on.

If the testing is initially wrong, then consistency means it's consistently wrong.
An ITS ought to know that... :rolleyes:

I agree that testing should result in the correct function, I can say with a great amount of confidence (being a victim myself) that it doesn't happen empirically.

I was originally tested as ISTP. I am not an ISTP.

The point dissonance was making was that if the questions are written in a way that the user thinks they understand, they will answer it, and (ideally) accurately so, to their understanding. However, if their assumption of the intended meaning differs from the actual intended meaning of only a single word, the question, given the boolean logic of the tests, will misrepresent the person. I emphasize the factor of idyllic violation, because people do and consistently observe themselves incorrectly.
Especially E__Ps, who, often without even knowing it, will lie or just make things up, even believing these things themselves.
Aside from that that, I find a great many people would rather have an answer, than the right answer, which almost invariably discourages further investigation. Apply this principle to introspection, and you'll have, with certainty, a lot of people who, even providing they do understand the question, will still not be able to answer accurately, because they have bad information.

After that, it may be a free-for-all even with the auxiliary function. When I hear people say that they're introverts but score higher on their auxiliary, I am always perplexed. If you're scoring higher on any extraverted function then you are most likely an extravert.
Ha!
So an INTJ who has 25% Si, 35% and 40% Te ought to be an ENTJ then?
 

Nocapszy

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Hopefully I'll manage to finish it and post tomorrow. I've got the table mostly set, so I can just let everything settle into place on it's own with ease.

I'm thinking I might end up doing a second version where I'll pick apart actual real world examples. I think a large part of the confusion in typology is not knowing where to look, or how to classify what you're seeing.

You guys could pick a movie and I'll type the characters and pick scenes apart -- that might be helpful.
 

entropie

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I like the entp attitude of looking devoted to one thing and being totally busy because of it :D.
 

"?"

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Take a lesson boys and girls:
This is the kind of thinking that necessitates the gargantuan post I'm still working on.

If the testing is initially wrong, then consistency means it's consistently wrong.
An ITS ought to know that... :rolleyes:
Absolutely, which is why when I initially found type theory through Keirsey, I constantly mistyped as INTJ. After reading "Gifts Differing" and having the MBTI Step II administered, my results were INTP. I could actually see the judging in me but never for a moment considered I was showing the world a perceiving function, nevertheless even considered myself ENTP for a brief time. After years of posting on INTPc and ENTP.ORG it became apparent that I was not intuitive at all.

It was only after I began reading Linda V. Berens and Dario Nardi's work that helped me to apply Jung's work to myself that I appreciated why I initially mistyped as an intuitive and why my core values rang true for SP.
I agree that testing should result in the correct function, I can say with a great amount of confidence (being a victim myself) that it doesn't happen empirically.

I was originally tested as ISTP. I am not an ISTP.

The point dissonance was making was that if the questions are written in a way that the user thinks they understand, they will answer it, and (ideally) accurately so, to their understanding. However, if their assumption of the intended meaning differs from the actual intended meaning of only a single word, the question, given the boolean logic of the tests, will misrepresent the person. I emphasize the factor of idyllic violation, because people do and consistently observe themselves incorrectly.
Especially E__Ps, who, often without even knowing it, will lie or just make things up, even believing these things themselves.

Aside from that that, I find a great many people would rather have an answer, than the right answer, which almost invariably discourages further investigation. Apply this principle to introspection, and you'll have, with certainty, a lot of people who, even providing they do understand the question, will still not be able to answer accurately, because they have bad information.
I agree somewhat, but once you find that the test questions are flawed, it seems insane to continue to take the test hoping that there will be different results. It would seem more logical to try a different method which again is why I so much appreciate Berens and practitioners that follow her methods. Now I can see why I answered tests questions the way I do, because of my own subjective interpretation of the questions. I have said before that tests may be better for extraverts because they are inclined to be objective, however for introverts their subjectivity may deceive them therefore must look at alternatives that decreases any subjectivity. For example my best confirmation was actually listening and observing how others see me. To the contrary and per Jung, my Ti is paramount.
Ha!

So an INTJ who has 25% Si, 35% and 40% Te ought to be an ENTJ then?
Uh… I’m not sure what you were attempting to convey here since you did not add a cognitive function to your 35%. If you were implying that it would be Ni, then yes clearly you’re dominating with Te, then Ni. Now to make sure we’re on the same track please tell me you are not alluding to cognitive function test results. Those are absolutely the last means of determining one’s type.
 

"?"

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Uhhh my point being that Introverted Ps shouldn't have a J function as their primary function. See sig.
You alluded to your system in another discussion and my response remains that you are merely spouting what Socionics was initially saying years ago. Furthermore you seem to focus on the J/P for some strange reason, which for introverted types would be their auxiliary. Are you implying that that we do not have a dominant type ergo we can change type at will?
 

"?"

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You guys could pick a movie and I'll type the characters and pick scenes apart -- that might be helpful.
Actually it will be more fun to pick your theory apart, if you ever post it.
 

Xander

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Would I be out of line in asking what the percentage scores actually represent?

Is there not a difference between strength of preferance displayed and actual preference?
 

Nocapszy

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Honestly Xander, I never did figure it out.
 

Xander

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Honestly Xander, I never did figure it out.
What the whole percentage thing? The reason I asked is because I've known people who's function strengths as shown by those kinds of tests don't match with their type as it plays out. I'm wondering whether the two are necessarily linked directly or whether the functions are measuring something slightly different.

I once spoke about the percentages to my father.. well twice but the first time he just thought that it was some internet "gadget" and disregarded them. He spoke of the percentages being not strength of preference but how strongly the preference is expressed. I'm still not clear on my thinking about the difference but I'm thinking it may hold the answer... should have pursued the answer at the time I guess...
 

Jack Flak

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You alluded to your system in another discussion and my response remains that you are merely spouting what Socionics was initially saying years ago. Furthermore you seem to focus on the J/P for some strange reason, which for introverted types would be their auxiliary. Are you implying that that we do not have a dominant type ergo we can change type at will?
No, in response to the question. What I'm saying is that your primary function is the function used more than any other by the individual. I thought that was very clear!

Maybe I am saying what Socionics was "years ago," if they removed the distinction from e/i in functions, and then reversed that later. You tell me, I wasn't up on Socionics in the 70s. I did say "tied to no system I'm aware of."
 
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