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  1. #1
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    Default Definitions of T/F

    I've been studying big five so long, I think I might be confused about T/F now. So please, someone:

    Define the T/F dimension of personality.

    Describe someone who is extremely T.

    Describe someone who is extremely F.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    "Rationality loses real estate when our perceived way of life is threatened.

    How one reacts is subjective to the threat itself." --Night

    Draw your own conclusions from that. I think its very helpful and accurate.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  3. #3
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    T's make decisions by standing back from the situation and logically deducing what to do. (i really hate that description because i used the word logic but you get the point)

    F's make decisions by throwing themselves into the situation and making a decision based on their personal value system.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Eric B gives a good account of distinguising T/F in saying:
    So "fair" is assumed to be something universal, and a Thinker would (in an objective, detached fashion) give to all equally, while an F would take into account other factors such as some starting off disadvantaged (sort of like many of the political debates in the US for the past few decades, involving the poor and social programs).

  5. #5
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    I'm really just trying to figure out how T/F matches up with big five traits. If you look at that test in Eric B's signature, it appears that T types are low neuroticism (N) and that F types are high agreeableness (A). That would make it a weird sorta blend of two big five traits. I know from being low N and high A, that one can be empathetic and logical, compassionate and reasonable, accommodating and questioning, and tough and tender.

    The one unique thing about A is that it's a trait that only surfaces in response to people (or sometimes animals). I'm reading a book that says A is the most difficult trait to detect simply by looking at someone's bedroom. Anyway, I find the list above that may seem like opposites can coexist if one involves how you deal with people (or animals), and the other involves how you deal with non-living things.

    I can be empathetic with people, yet logical when dealing with math.
    I can be compassionate with people, yet reasonable with scientific things.
    I am definitely accommodating, but I question the hell out of every established system and institution.
    I can be tough when my own car goes off the road, but tender when I see someone in a motorcycle accident.

    Someone low on N is logical and positive. Someone high on N has a higher capacity for negative emotions (positive emotions are linked to extraversion), such as fear, anxiety, depression, and anger, making that person a drama queen.

    Someone high on A is a team player, wants to get along with everybody, hates competition, and is very willing to adapt to get along with anyone. Someone low on A is competitive and selfish. They have a sort of "my way or the highway" attitude and think that people should adapt to them.

    I remember an example of 12 salesmen. It was 6 of them low in A that were doing best and 6 who were moderates that were doing well. Their ignant company decided that they should all get together and work as a nice, happy team, not realizing their competitive, anti-team nature made them good salesmen. It only took a few months for most of them to go, including all the low A types.

  6. #6
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    How I define them is:

    Feeling is emotion-based information processing/value assignment

    Thinking is logic-based information processing/value assignment

    What occupies your mind more, the preference, defines T/F.

  7. #7
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    if you listen to the kohlberg "heinz story"...

    A woman was near death from a special kind of cancer. There was one drug that the doctors thought might save her. It was a form of radium that a druggist in the same town had recently discovered. The drug was expensive to make, but the druggist was charging ten times what the drug cost him to produce. He paid $200 for the radium and charged $2,000 for a small dose of the drug. The sick woman's husband, Heinz, went to everyone he knew to borrow the money, but he could only get together about $ 1,000, which is half of what it cost. He told the druggist that his wife was dying and asked him to sell it cheaper or let him pay later. But the druggist said, "No, I discovered the drug and I'm going to make money from it." So Heinz got desperate and broke into the man's store to steal the drug for his wife.
    ...and conclude that the drug company should of given the drug at a lower price, then might be an F. An F might be more likely make that special exception, while a T would realize how lowering prices just so "everyone gets to have one, even if they cant afford it" cant work on a universal scale.



    Also it should be noted, that sometimes:
    We must also remain aware of the fact that the 'inferior' function of an individual may be experienced with intensity and frequency, and might thus be mistaken for the individual's 'superior' (or 'primary' function). For instance, if an individual revels in eating (an 'S' function) this may not be because he is a 'sensing' type - and may even be an indication that 'sensing' is his inferior function, to the extent that it is through the sensing function that he falls 'into the grip' of the unconscious (to use Von Franz's phrase). For such an individual eating is experienced as 'numinous', mysterious, compelling - it is experienced with intensity and threatens to overwhelm the individual.
    relating the above to someone with inferior T or F might lead to some mistakes in typing individuals

  8. #8
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    Someone low on N is logical and positive. Someone high on N has a higher capacity for negative emotions (positive emotions are linked to extraversion), such as fear, anxiety, depression, and anger, making that person a drama queen.
    Be careful about moving descriptions into the real world. N-s are not logical or positive: they are non-reactive, in that when something happens, they don't have a strong negative reaction to it. On the other hand, E- tend to be equally non reactive in the positive sense - they don't have a strong positive reaction to things.

    Drama queens will tend to be N+, for sure, but it's not an inherent thing. They simply are reacting stronger and longer than others.

    The relationship between A and T/F is fairly strong, but not absolute. And more to the point, MBTI doesn't use the same concepts as FFM. That is, the theory behind MBTI simply won't connect T/F to A in FFM. The tests, however, give you a fairly good idea of how they do. In general, F/T and A+/- will share empathy and the urge to get to know people. They also will tend to be more accepting of others, such as diversity of groups and what not (not directly asked, but highly correlated.)

    The other aspects, like logical and so forth, are more directly asked in MBTI, whereas they are more reductionist from the FFM A subtraits. This is largely because our definitions of each don't cross: selfish = logical, for example, or that A- will tend to seek conflict (which often translates to "logical arguments") and the A+ will try to get along.

    Re: Your sales example. In a A+ sense, sales people are trying to take advantage of their customers. There isn't a full T equivalent for that situation, except in terms of empathy being the wrong strategy.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Willfrey's Avatar
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    I am T, and my co-worker is F.

    We each worked on different price guides in Excell, I sat back, sketched what I wanted it to look like in pencil, and then made it.

    He went straight to entering data and ended up getting it done faster whist I was still struggling with Excell's formatting dynamics (No 'Text Box' Function?! Preposterous!)

  10. #10
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    I'm really just trying to figure out how T/F matches up with big five traits. If you look at that test in Eric B's signature, it appears that T types are low neuroticism (N) and that F types are high agreeableness (A). That would make it a weird sorta blend of two big five traits. I know from being low N and high A, that one can be empathetic and logical, compassionate and reasonable, accommodating and questioning, and tough and tender.
    My signature is based on Step II, which does not directly include Neuroticism. It is just subscales of the existing four dichotomies. Now there is an extension of the subscale system called Type Differentiation Indicator which adds a dichotomy called "Comfort/Discomfort", which corresponds to Neuroticism. In the factor analysis, some of its subscales loaded on J/P; not T/F, IIRC.

    Agreeableness would most closely correspond to role-directive/informative, and hence be T/F for Sensors and J/P for iNtuitors. Structure vs Motive (the reverse of that) also seems to be a kind of Agreeableness.

    It seems another way to describe T/F is that T determines what's valid while F determines what's desired.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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