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View Poll Results: Is the four function model valid?

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  • Yes

    11 39.29%
  • No

    10 35.71%
  • Ambivalent (explain in thread)

    7 25.00%
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  1. #71
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Are you paying any attention to the issue here?
    No one has said they're rules. I say there's no function order at all. You guys say there are only 8 possible configurations, whence there is deviation.
    If it's flexible, why even bother mentioning it?
    Either way you have to treat each case as though it might be a deviant from the tendency. You could do it your way, or you could just set yourself up to be naturally inclined for further analysis, by ignoring the 'tendency' altogether.


    The 'roles' thing is a load of crap too. Every function, because they have a specific abstract definition in which all concrete behavior fits into one of which categories, has the same potential role in every person. The only questions are strength, frequency of use, and preference.
    So then why two and not one?

  2. #72
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    I kinda assumed that was implicit with MBTI. A rigid type order doesn't really help, it's more of a fuzzy logic thing IMO. If that makes sense. I'm struggling to put it into words.

    Edit: Alternatively, you can keep the function order, but the intensity varies, like on a bar graph.
    Actually, I don't agree with the function order at all. Just 1 and 2 as defined by the basis of the 16 types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    Are you paying any attention to the issue here?
    No one has said they're rules. I say there's no function order at all. You guys say there are only 8 possible configurations, whence there is deviation.
    If it's flexible, why even bother mentioning it?
    Either way you have to treat each case as though it might be a deviant from the tendency. You could do it your way, or you could just set yourself up to be naturally inclined for further analysis, by ignoring the 'tendency' altogether.
    Well excuse my inability to pay attention to details. Then I'll have to disagree. There is function order... but only within individuals and that does not apply for types. An individual can have one of 8! (40320) ordering. However for all individuals for a specific type, the 1st 2 functions should be identical as defined by their type. That is what I meant.


    The 'roles' thing is a load of crap too. Every function, because they have a specific abstract definition in which all concrete behavior fits into one of which categories, has the same potential role in every person. The only questions are strength, frequency of use, and preference.
    Never liked Berens etc's garbage.

  3. #73
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post

    Well excuse my inability to pay attention to details. Then I'll have to disagree. There is function order... but only within individuals and that does not apply for types. An individual can have one of 8! (40320) ordering. However for all individuals for a specific type, the 1st 2 functions should be identical as defined by their type. That is what I meant.
    lol, my words were too fuzzy. ^^^ is what I meant in my post.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  4. #74
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Anyone? Why aren't there 56 types?

  5. #75
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Dissonance, I think you understand fully where both sides stand. You also from my perception of you see where there is mutual agreement as well. I don't feel like expounding (because I don't think I could do so as articulately as I'd like), but it seems like my stance aligns closer to yours. I think its one of those cases where you just have to sit back and understand that people on either sides are not going to budge.

    It's most likely due to their strong personal experience and interpretation on the matter and that is one thing that grants a somewhat unnecessary amount of inflexibility.

    Hmm... interesting how that sort of parallels the discussion.

    In essence the inflexibility is the source of contention, but the balance and mutual understanding/agreement that you seek is in opposition to that. Seeing both sides can be a taxing position be in, and I commend you for trying to bring clarity to the matter, but I don't know if it will get you anywhere.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  6. #76
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    lol, my words were too fuzzy. ^^^ is what I meant in my post.
    Awesome!

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Anyone? Why aren't there 56 types?
    Because Myers and Briggs said 16 is enough. Why select 56 though? Why not 40320? I'm going to use my rainbow example again. The level of personality traits are like light refracted off a prism. It's a continuous spectrum just like visible light. People arbitrary defined 7 "colors" of the rainbow just like Myers and Briggs arbitrary said there should be 16 types. It just make it easier to categorize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Dissonance, I think you understand fully where both sides stand. You also from my perception of you see where there is mutual agreement as well. I don't feel like expounding (because I don't think I could do so as articulately as I'd like), but it seems like my stance aligns closer to yours. I think its one of those cases where you just have to sit back and understand that people on either sides are not going to budge.
    No Siree! Ain't budging. I find it great fun.

    In essence the inflexibility is the source of contention, but the balance and mutual understanding/agreement that you seek is in opposition to that. Seeing both sides can be a taxing position be in, and I commend you for trying to bring clarity to the matter, but I don't know if it will get you anywhere.
    Hmmm it really is less about seeing the opposite perspective than disagreeing with the starting definition of what typology ought to mean. Which brings up an interesting topic. What does typology mean? MBTI? Enneagram? A mixture? or something else?

  7. #77
    Senior Member Anonymous's Avatar
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    There's an infinite amount of personality types since each function itself is on a percentage scale of strength. So you're basically sacrificing accuracy for generalization when you start cutting back from infinite to finite amounts of personalities (for instance, from infinite to 40,320 [thanks nightning] to 16). So in a way, as soon as you do this with manageable numbers and try to use it to describe an entirely personality, you're getting utter nonsense. That's why I'm more partial to simply testing for traits alone, and not creating profiles at all based off of those traits. And the traits themselves are very limiting in MBTI. I don't think it has enough to really be useful, and most of them haven't even been studied very well.

  8. #78
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Because Myers and Briggs said 16 is enough. Why select 56 though? Why not 40320? I'm going to use my rainbow example again. The level of personality traits are like light refracted off a prism. It's a continuous spectrum just like visible light. People arbitrary defined 7 "colors" of the rainbow just like Myers and Briggs arbitrary said there should be 16 types. It just make it easier to categorize.
    I know -- I'm playing devil's advocate.

    If your type is defined by your first two functions, and "function order is bullshit" or whatever (this is the stance nocap is taking), there should be 56 possibilities, not 16.

    P.S. Aimahn seems to be the only one that isn't misinterpreting me...

  9. #79
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Actually, I don't agree with the function order at all. Just 1 and 2 as defined by the basis of the 16 types.
    Well excuse my inability to pay attention to details. Then I'll have to disagree. There is function order... but only within individuals and that does not apply for types. An individual can have one of 8! (40320) ordering. However for all individuals for a specific type, the 1st 2 functions should be identical as defined by their type. That is what I meant.
    If that's your holding, than we don't disagree.
    we fukin won boys

  10. #80
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    So then why two and not one?
    I've explained it pretty solidly in my P and J muddling post.
    When I finish composing the entire thing, I'll hilight the section.

    I might even import the relevant parts to this thread, but for the most part, I've abandoned this thread.
    we fukin won boys

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