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View Poll Results: Is the four function model valid?

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  • Yes

    11 39.29%
  • No

    10 35.71%
  • Ambivalent (explain in thread)

    7 25.00%
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  1. #61
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Except....Nevermind, it's not worth it. *violent disagreement*
    Again, this whole disagreement comes down to order of usage vs. "order" of roles.

    The order of roles people just think of the function order as an arbitrarily defined framework that's internally consistent.

    The order of functions people have a problem with order in general because nurture effects everything so much (aka there is too much variation).

  2. #62
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    4 function system. And you don't fuck with it. INTPs are Ti, Ne, Si, Fe, ALWAYS, and in that order. This is how and why the system was created. The system is a system. Obviously it isn't perfect, but it was never given. Since there is no such thing, in reality, as Ti, Ne, etc. etc., that is specifically why you cannot change them. It is taking them out of context. Many people here don't understand them.
    exactly. order makes all the difference. i get a kick out of people who take the cognitive personality test and get Te, Ti, Ne, Fe etc etc. lol, what does that tell you!? (besides the test is pointless). personally though, i see no flaws with the function system having order, its the order and orientation of all the functions that tells you the most. like i push excessively, a single function out of order doesn't tell you all that much but a single function in relation to the other three tells you a whole lot.
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  3. #63
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    i think the naysayers get caught up in the exceptions and hence poo poo the theory because they can think of all these examples against the theory. I think the INTPs who pride themselves on making a theory more accurate may be prone to confirmation bias of things that stand out against the theory.

    example: a lot of INTPs do relate to Fi more than Fe so they often think the theory is BS.

    however, on the whole, I think the theory makes lots of sense and has many positive examples:

    A Ni user needs some sort of input from the environment, having Se be the little helper just makes sense. If it were Si, this person would lack external data, if it were Ne, this person would have a very distorted view of the world. (i am aware that function tests often show both Ni and Ne being high together)

    IXTJs and Fi. Excellent example. INTPs and Si (ability to memorize all of these facts/theories). EXTPs and Fe (adds a sense of tact to their verbal agility in debates). ENxJs, Se, and their sense of being "of the sensor world"....

    I think to appease the naysayers, it should be said that the function theory is just an example of a perfect model. The theoretical ENTJ makes the most sense as Te Ni Se Fi. This doesnt mean that the theory cant absorb the naysayers who have differing results.

  4. #64
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    i think the naysayers get caught up in the exceptions and hence poo poo the theory because they can think of all these examples against the theory. I think the INTPs who pride themselves on making a theory more accurate may be prone to confirmation bias of things that stand out against the theory.
    You say exception, I say disproof.

    If it's a rule, it hasn't got any exceptions. If it does, then it's a tendency. Calling a rule doesn't mean that's what it is.

    You're wearing something metal around your neck. I call it a fish.
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  5. #65
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Eight function model!
    We all obviously use all eight; it's just a matter of what role the other six fall into (regardless of necessary relative strength)
    +1

    You tend to use dominant and auxiliary more frequently/more efficiently than say tertiary and inferior. I agree to that. You do not use (or rarely use) shadow functions I disagree with. There is no function order beyond 1 & 2. The rest of it varies depending on what environment you're in and what you consciously practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    4 function system. And you don't fuck with it. INTPs are Ti, Ne, Si, Fe, ALWAYS, and in that order. This is how and why the system was created. The system is a system. Obviously it isn't perfect, but it was never given. Since there is no such thing, in reality, as Ti, Ne, etc. etc., that is specifically why you cannot change them. It is taking them out of context. Many people here don't understand them.
    If the system is wrong, do you not fuck with it? Theory is not fact. If cognitive functions aren't up to the task of describing behaviour, there's no point in keeping it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    You say exception, I say disproof.

    If it's a rule, it hasn't got any exceptions. If it does, then it's a tendency. Calling a rule doesn't mean that's what it is.
    Agree with the difference between rule and tendency. MBTI isn't rules... it's a model (i.e. made up) to describe tendencies.

    You're wearing something metal around your neck. I call it a fish.
    But it's not.
    What you call it has no relation to what is. Calling it a fish is only helpful if other people can identify that object as "fish" and find uses for that label.

  6. #66
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    +1

    You tend to use dominant and auxiliary more frequently/more efficiently than say tertiary and inferior. I agree to that. You do not use (or rarely use) shadow functions I disagree with. There is no function order beyond 1 & 2. The rest of it varies depending on what environment you're in and what you consciously practice.
    That would seem accurate, from what I observe. Hence, they are roles and not necessary strength levels.
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  7. #67
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    In any play I've ever seen, the Role Players are very strong.

    No one's done even a decent job explaining what those roles are.

    And there's no need for the roles at all -- Ne is Ne no matter who's using it.
    we fukin won boys

  8. #68
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    You tend to use dominant and auxiliary more frequently/more efficiently than say tertiary and inferior. I agree to that. You do not use (or rarely use) shadow functions I disagree with. There is no function order beyond 1 & 2. The rest of it varies depending on what environment you're in and what you consciously practice.
    I kinda assumed that was implicit with MBTI. A rigid type order doesn't really help, it's more of a fuzzy logic thing IMO. If that makes sense. I'm struggling to put it into words.

    Edit: Alternatively, you can keep the function order, but the intensity varies, like on a bar graph.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  9. #69
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Agree with the difference between rule and tendency. MBTI isn't rules... it's a model (i.e. made up) to describe tendencies.
    Are you paying any attention to the issue here?
    No one has said they're rules. I say there's no function order at all. You guys say there are only 8 possible configurations, whence there is deviation.
    If it's flexible, why even bother mentioning it?
    Either way you have to treat each case as though it might be a deviant from the tendency. You could do it your way, or you could just set yourself up to be naturally inclined for further analysis, by ignoring the 'tendency' altogether.


    The 'roles' thing is a load of crap too. Every function, because they have a specific abstract definition in which all concrete behavior fits into one of which categories, has the same potential role in every person. The only questions are strength, frequency of use, and preference.
    we fukin won boys

  10. #70
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    In any play I've ever seen, the Role Players are very strong.

    No one's done even a decent job explaining what those roles are.

    And there's no need for the roles at all -- Ne is Ne no matter who's using it.
    But it might be used different to the different people using it. To you, it's the dominant or hero, but to INP's, its auxiliary; to an Si type it's less mature, and to Ni and Se types, it's unconsciously used and usually negative. (oppositional, critical, deceiving or destructive). From what I'm seeing, this does seem to fit somewhat.
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