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  1. #11
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I was trained well by my ENTJ father. You wait until you can bear it no longer and then simply state "I'm sorry but you're going to have to die" and then carry it though. It's kind of evolved natural selection in practice
    Does that actually work though? Stereotypes persists even when we don't want them to. You can tell it to die all you want, but the sneaky bastard always resurrects. This is something I'm prone to doing. Thoughts just creeps in and I have to beat them back.

    I'm beginning to think that this is what is meant by "dynamic type". Perhaps it's supposed to infer that although you may be an ESFJ you are not always an ESFJ in effect, not purely. It is only saying that if you were to take the average then you are an ESFJ and that this colours most of what you do.

    That is an excellent example. I'll send that one along to my father for consideration in his book if you don't mind.
    The issue with dynamic type is the word "dynamic", does it mean a person's type is constantly changing (which the word implies) or does it mean people don't change but the type should flex? Or is it both? I get confused.

    *nods* Feel free to use it. It's not exactly my example, I just pulled it from a different context.

    Two things, aside from that I've never read Berens' theories. I think that the dominant functions are those we find easiest to work with. Just like the handedness example in mainstream MBTI literature. So yeah perhaps it is the first one we pick up, without studying a child under a microscope to see when they develop a left or right hand preference I'm thinking that you're probably right.

    The second thing is in reference to function order. I think that you type only displays what your original preference order would be if you were a classic example of the type (probably an example that is purely theoretical in nature). The actual results shown by people will include what development they have gone through, their experiences and influences. That's why they don't really correlate neatly.
    If you haven't read Berens' stuff, I'll recommend that you don't. Types are slotted into such narrowly defined and static groups that it doesn't correlate to mature and well developed individuals very well.

    On the issue of development of functions... this topic has never been properly discussed in type theories. I find the idea of "you should develop your first three functions and ignore the rest" hard to accept.

    Hmmm... fancy doing a Schrodinger's cat example with types?
    Heh... got any guinea pigs we can do testing on? I wouldn't mind playing.

    That was one surprise I found whilst reading through the MBTI books. It states that the primary authority on a person's type is the person themselves. That seems to be kinda asking for trouble from an organisation that makes ends meet with computer readable tests and such.
    Self diagnosis is made difficult because the average individual typically doesn't understand the terminology used. Words like Thinking and Feeling have pre-existing meanings that bias responses. That's one of my pet peeves with MBTI testing.

  2. #12
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    There does seem to be more literature available on what the types are, what it means and what it predicts than there is on how you should go about typing people. It seems that the current game of snap which most people engage in isn't as reliable as it perhaps should be.
    I agree, but I own one such book:
    The Art of SpeedReading People by Barron and Tieger.

  3. #13
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    ...
    Self diagnosis is made difficult because the average individual typically doesn't understand the terminology used. Words like Thinking and Feeling have pre-existing meanings that bias responses. That's one of my pet peeves with MBTI testing.
    I agree with you. That's what I have found also. That's why there is no perfect written test, in my opinion. I find the personal interview/response method to be the best. And not to be mean, but I have found men notoriously less self-aware than women. Any time I want to help a male figure out his type, I get a female in his life to help me, such as his mom or wife. And generally speaking whenever I can get the opinions of other friends or family members, it helps the process go more quickly because, as I have experienced anyway, MBTT is all about "compared to who". I used to think I was observant until I realized what they meant by "observant" was more like what my ISTP husband was doing.

  4. #14
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    This is why I was hoping that function "users" would respond to #1 though. If you are observing a person in a less than ideal (for them) environment then the function usage will be slanted in favour of whatever they are using at that point in time.

    So are you talking MBTI subconscious functions (ie the tertiary and inferior) or something else here? You've switched between MBTI and something undeclared.. either that or I'm confusing myself.

    That was one surprise I found whilst reading through the MBTI books. It states that the primary authority on a person's type is the person themselves. That seems to be kinda asking for trouble from an organization that makes ends meet with computer readable tests and such.
    no matter what my answer would be on #1 function order/orientation should always remain the same. now ya, you can say, "oh, he is using Ne" and that might be true. great. but that is about all it is going to tell you. woo. now what i get a little pissy about is when i hear people saying, "oh, im an ENTP and i took a cognitive functions test and my functions are as follows: Ti, Te, Ne, Fe...blah blah blah" ya if your an ENTP your functions are Ne, Ti, Fe, Si. now true, you can use your Fe and such but it is still filtered through your Ne and Ti so of coures your Fe is going to be different then someone who is, say, an ENFJ. so your right, you can observe individual functions at work, but many times they are still being filtered through other functions and thus may not be true to the definition of that function as an individual entity.

    ya i kept switching between the shadow function (which is subconscious. i think the tertiary function is conscious but not always being used) and the traditional definition of subconscious. sorry bout that lol. also, there is a difference between subconscious and unconscious. personally i believe that the shadow is unconscious, but that is just me.

    and ya, tests can be HORRIBLY flawed and im quite against them, for the most part. they do have their place however so i cant completely discredit them. i know tons of INFJs that come out ISFJs and tons of ENXPs that come up INXP (i think that has to do with the introspection factor, which doesn't necessarily mean introversion but usually when you are introspecting you tend to be introverting in a sense).
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

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  5. #15
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    well, you've touched upon something here in terms of my understanding of functional analysis...


    ..., "oh, im an ENTP and i took a cognitive functions test and my functions are as follows: Ti, Te, Ne, Fe...blah blah blah" ya if your an ENTP your functions are Ne, Ti, Fe, Si. now true, you can use your Fe and such but it is still filtered through your Ne and Ti so of coures your Fe is going to be different then someone who is, say, an ENFJ. so your right, you can observe individual functions at work, but many times they are still being filtered through other functions and thus may not be true to the definition of that function as an individual entity.

    so there are 8 functions. if you consider the possible rankings (if all 8 were considered completely independent functions) they could form 5,040 different combinations, but we're told that there are 16. what is the basis for this? i'm not a complete skeptic, i believe in personality types to some degree, but why should there be only 16 possible combinations here? (i personally believe i'm not one of the 16...)

  6. #16
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brazil View Post
    ...
    so there are 8 functions. if you consider the possible rankings (if all 8 were considered completely independent functions) they could form 5,040 different combinations, but we're told that there are 16. what is the basis for this? i'm not a complete skeptic, i believe in personality types to some degree, but why should there be only 16 possible combinations here? (i personally believe i'm not one of the 16...)
    When you do your math, you have to add in a couple of limitations.
    Of the first two functions, one must be an information gathering function - either S or N,
    and the second must be a decision making function, either F or T,
    though either one can come first.

    Here is a list to look at:
    (it's at the bottom of the page)
    The 16 Type Patterns

    As you can see, the 3rd and 4th functions follow the same rule.

  7. #17
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    I think the other thing to keep in mind that the theoretical order in which the functions develop produces the 16 types. If a person's environment doesn't support natural development, then the preferences do develop out of order--at least a not-very-vocal group of type practitioners believe this is true, vs. the more vocal Beebe and other camps who stick to a set order.

    So let's say your preferences are INFJ. Sticking with the traditional order of preferences...
    • Ni develops first, in early childhood with daydreaming and a rich imaginative inner life. The young INFJ is content to frequently play alone and pretend to be the greatest French Resistance fighter of all times. What if the parents are Extraverted and haul that child everywhere, seldom allowing the solo play? Ni development may well be stunted.
    • Fe should develop next. But maybe it's had a head start since the child has been dragged everywhere. The child then has its Judging preference but hasn't learned conscious control of its Ni. This could result in an adolescent who makes snap decisions about the needs and motivations of others rather than the more mature pattern of INFJs who first use Ni to consider possibilities and then Fe to act in the outer world.
    • Or, worse yet what if the parents dragged that child to very Thinking environments--perhaps the parents value math achievement above all else so the child has been to math camps and math competitions and chess club and...all logical pursuits? Now the child hasn't been able to develop either of its natural functions. They may have some conscious control of Te but it'll always be less natural, less fulfilling, than if Fe had been allowed to develop. The child may begin feeling inept compared to all the natural chess players/ math people (note: F's can be great at math and some might even want to be in the math competitions from an early age. I'm just setting up patterns...)
    • Se would be last traditionally. This child might find it a total escape, joining sports or getting into sensory overload through drugs, overeating, overexercising--anything to avoid the constant inner emptiness caused by a lack of conscious control of Ni that has been blocked by an environment that didn't support the natural growth pattern of the child...


    Yes this post assumes that type is innate--we're born with a predisposition to our psychological preferences. But our environment, culture, education, social circles, family, experiences influence the development of those preferences, for better and for worse. The good news is that ALL normal people will develop skills with the opposite preferences. The bad news is that a lot of (*$&(# can get in teh way of normal development. that's why counselors and psychotherapists can generally count on full employment if they're any good at what they do...
    edcoaching

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    #2 Function order.
    There seems to be a lot of debate going on about this and the relative use of functions in typing. Personally I think it's linked to #1 in that precise function order is useful but it's going to flex with context.

    I think that's why they only list four functions. The others are presumably more prone to shifting with context and are therefore too fluid in their priority to list with any certainty.
    See my signature for a solution to most problems with the functions. (I know you've read all about it, X, but others may not have.)

    From recent readings I'm thinking that the most effective method is to type in pairs NT, SP and so forth. So typing someone as an NT and then looking to see if they are E or I and by considering EJ vs IJ and EP vs IP and so forth.
    I am now using the Keirsey split and the following split almost equally. They are similarly useful in my mind.

    NP, SP, TJ, FJ

    Neatly linking into this is the idea of type "snapshots". Those little pieces of a types tendencies which we recall like stereotypes. Should these be used? Are they part of a healthy approach to typing (although a shortcut) or do they merely propagate poor typing and poor understanding of types?
    Yes. It is one of a few effective analysis techniques, but one very dependent on the practitioner's ability. Novices and MBTI experts alike may or may not be skilled at comparison classification. Therefore, I recommend that if a person doesn't think it holds merit, they should definitely steer clear of using it. I hypothesize that NPs will be more naturally adept.

  9. #19
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brazil View Post
    well, you've touched upon something here in terms of my understanding of functional analysis...

    ..., "oh, im an ENTP and i took a cognitive functions test and my functions are as follows: Ti, Te, Ne, Fe...blah blah blah" ya if your an ENTP your functions are Ne, Ti, Fe, Si. now true, you can use your Fe and such but it is still filtered through your Ne and Ti so of coures your Fe is going to be different then someone who is, say, an ENFJ. so your right, you can observe individual functions at work, but many times they are still being filtered through other functions and thus may not be true to the definition of that function as an individual entity.
    so there are 8 functions. if you consider the possible rankings (if all 8 were considered completely independent functions) they could form 5,040 different combinations, but we're told that there are 16. what is the basis for this? i'm not a complete skeptic, i believe in personality types to some degree, but why should there be only 16 possible combinations here? (i personally believe i'm not one of the 16...)
    ill let everyone else explain. i suggest reading please understand me part II and most anything written by carl jung. keirseys temperaments are a derivative of jungs functions so the order of the function is quite important. and where did you get 5,040 combinations. i haven't taken statistics for a LONG time but isn't it 8 x 7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1. you can choose from the eight functions but once youve chosen you have seven left that you must choose from then six and so on. so there would be 40,320 lol wow that doesn't sound correct.
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  10. #20
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Does that actually work though? Stereotypes persists even when we don't want them to. You can tell it to die all you want, but the sneaky bastard always resurrects. This is something I'm prone to doing. Thoughts just creeps in and I have to beat them back.
    Not stereotypes.... just the users of them. You can't kill an idea but you can have a damn good try and killing off anyone who uses it
    The issue with dynamic type is the word "dynamic", does it mean a person's type is constantly changing (which the word implies) or does it mean people don't change but the type should flex? Or is it both? I get confused.
    That's what's confusing me. What about the type is dynamic?

    At present I'm keeping with the idea that they're stating it's "dynamic" to indicate that it should never be read as 100% certain or predictable. Seems a little like a get out clause to me but it is accurate.
    *nods* Feel free to use it. It's not exactly my example, I just pulled it from a different context.
    Lots of large armoured vehicle mounting a cannon.

    :newwink
    If you haven't read Berens' stuff, I'll recommend that you don't. Types are slotted into such narrowly defined and static groups that it doesn't correlate to mature and well developed individuals very well.
    I think you skipped a bit... Beren's sheds light on these mature types or I should read it cause it spectacularly fails to?

    I do agree though that most of the typing stuff I've read really doesn't help when it comes to developed types. When I was trying to figure the parallels between myself and Wildcat I kept coming up against brick walls. I think we both developed away from the INTP norm... just not in the same way... We're both playing all the right notes... it's just some *#@!! nicked the music sheets
    On the issue of development of functions... this topic has never been properly discussed in type theories. I find the idea of "you should develop your first three functions and ignore the rest" hard to accept.
    Well that's the thing isn't it. How do you develop a function? I personally think that it's better to think in terms of practising thinking and acting more in tune with other types and not actually altering my own type. Kind of more like trying to incorporate other's thinking rather than change my own thinking to match theirs. Osmosis I think is the correct term.
    Self diagnosis is made difficult because the average individual typically doesn't understand the terminology used. Words like Thinking and Feeling have pre-existing meanings that bias responses. That's one of my pet peeves with MBTI testing.
    I struggle to reconcile this myself. How is it that a practising MBTI professional should consider the subject an adequate source of accurate information when the subject often does not understand the implications of their analysis. Perhaps through guided psychoanalysis their responses my elicit a more accurate type but that's hardly the same as asking the person to validate their own type. Personally I think it's more helpful to be presented with a type as a challenge to my own perceptions of myself than as validation for my behaviour.

    (Note to all, I've been absent for a while. I'll be responding shortly to all responses.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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