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  1. #1
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Default Ti's and Te's and Trees

    I'll look up some links as well, but for some reason the distinction between these two is not entirely clear to me. Anyone have a good handle on it? Fi-Fe and Si-Se make sense, but the Ni-Ne and Ti-Te bit, not so much for some reason.
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 07-09-2007 at 01:39 PM.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I'll look up some links as well, but for some reason the distinction between these two is not entirely clear to me. Anyone have a good handle on it? Fi-Fe and Si-Se make sense, but the Ni-Ne and Ti-Te bit, not so much for some reason.
    I have covered the Ni-Ne thing elsewhere a few times, as I saw it from Lenore Thomson and a few others; but maybe I was not as clear as could be, or some other person needs to give their perspective.

    Ti-Te seems very clear to me. If you understand Fi-Fe, that helps.

    • Fi = internal personal values, the subjective valuing of things, drives behavior from inside
    • Fe = external personal values, the "rules" that have been designated by society to express internal motivations and maintain outer relationships.


    So Ti and Te are similar, just in the impersonal vein.

    • Ti = internal structure/essence/definition of things, like the bare-bones conceptual outline of 'truth' about things
    • Te = the external structuring of things in a way that makes them work most correctly and efficiently and effectively, that still ends up reflecting their inner truth.


    Put another way:

    • Ti and Fi make decisions about the internal organization (i.e., categorization and nature) of things
    • Te and Fe make decisions about the external organization (i.e., how they are assembled and implemented) of things.



    Note that Fi and Fe have some overlap -- the personal values are reflected in the social values and vice versa, they are not clearly separate from each other but overlap each other. And Ti and Te are the same way -- the essence of what something is impacts how it needs to be best implemented, and the ways that things are best implemented says things about their inner "true" natures.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I'll look up some links as well, but for some reason the distinction between these two is not entirely clear to me. Anyone have a good handle on it? Fi-Fe and Si-Se make sense, but the Ni-Ne and Ti-Te bit, not so much for some reason.
    It's harder to see what we are... which is ironic, because we never really know what the other is like. It's just easy to assume what it is like!

    I'm not sure if this will help you, but Ti and Te might help... And here is Ni and Ne.

    The easiest ways to explain them is that T is the decision making process based upon order. Ti orders concepts internally... how things fit together conceptually. Te orders concepts externally... bring order to the world.

    N is relatively easy to explain once the basic "intuitive" mind is understood. Ns are the ones that see things that don't exist in the present. When they see trees, they don't see a tree... they see what the tree represents, how it will grow, what it will become, how it will affect the land around it. For Ns, nothing is just "an apple", we are driven to see more than just that. Nis project into the way the world 'should' be... an internal version of how things can become. Nes see the world as it will become.

    Hence you get Te-Ni, which are the law makers, the shapers, the leaders (ENTJs)... and you get the INTJs that are the visionaries, the drivers. On the flipside you get the ENTPs, the dreamers and inventors... and the INTPs, the philosophers and theorists.

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    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So Ti and Te are similar, just in the impersonal vein.

    • Ti = internal structure/essence/definition of things, like the bare-bones conceptual outline of 'truth' about things
    • Te = the external structuring of things in a way that makes them work most correctly and efficiently and effectively, that still ends up reflecting their inner truth.


    Put another way:

    • Ti and Fi make decisions about the internal organization (i.e., categorization and nature) of things
    • Te and Fe make decisions about the external organization (i.e., how they are assembled and implemented) of things.
    So is Ti most likely to know the name of every wildflower, or remember every opus number and such things? There is something I dramatically lack when processing information, and it has to do with categorization and labeling. I do love to organize things externally, but I'm hopeless with labels. It was my biggest challenge getting through grad school. I loved discussing stylistic evolution or dating a piece on hearing it, but naming pieces on hearing them? No thank you. I also love organizing sounds based on an inner vision, but once again, the less they are labeled in my mind, the easier they are to work with. Is that Ti or Te?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The easiest ways to explain them is that T is the decision making process based upon order. Ti orders concepts internally... how things fit together conceptually. Te orders concepts externally... bring order to the world.
    I'm really thinking I'm Te. Sometimes it's hard to tell over the internet, but my concept of order is external. My mind is like a tornado slide. Whee!

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    N is relatively easy to explain once the basic "intuitive" mind is understood. Ns are the ones that see things that don't exist in the present. When they see trees, they don't see a tree... they see what the tree represents, how it will grow, what it will become, how it will affect the land around it. For Ns, nothing is just "an apple", we are driven to see more than just that. Nis project into the way the world 'should' be... an internal version of how things can become. Nes see the world as it will become.
    I'm a rather strong N. This is how I see a tree
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #5
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I'm a rather strong N. This is how I see a tree
    Awesome analogy then

    It makes you sound very INTP. I can't picture a Ni-Te saying anything like that easily... certainly not easily and willingly. (I'm trying to picture my GF saying this and I'm cracking up!)

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    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    The S/N dichotomy does not affect the dichotomy of Extraversion. These are basically separate processes even when they coexist.

    There is always the standpoint of E. E is subdivided in impulsiveness and activity. These are separate processes.

    From the standpoint of E, P is impulsiveness and J is activity.

    E does not divide between N and S nor between T and F but only between J and P.

    Therefore from the standpoint of the J/P dichotomy of E, N does not differ from S; or T from F. E in this sense is colour blind.

    Ne/Se = impulsion = P
    Te/Fe = activity = J

    Ni/Si is not E. It is the exact opposite. Ni/Si is stable.
    Ti/Fi is not E. It is the exact opposite. Ti/Fi is non-active.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    So is Ti most likely to know the name of every wildflower, or remember every opus number and such things?
    I wouldn't say that -- those are very specific details. Knowing the "essence/ nature" of something is different than accumulating lots of details.

    Ti collects details, then crunches through them and spits out the conceptual truth/framework that connects them all.

    So while I have a good memory (well, I did before I stopped sleeping!) and often accumulated lots of details, trivia or otherwise, I am very aware that my mental process is one that searches out the details, coaxes out the patterns / underlying concepts, then throws out the detail.

    (So it is very frustrating to me when I get into a Te style argument -- I have to research the topic all over again! All I have in my head are the conclusions and underlying concepts, and if someone wants me to explain everything, I often have to go back and recreate my process.)

    There is something I dramatically lack when processing information, and it has to do with categorization and labeling. I do love to organize things externally, but I'm hopeless with labels. It was my biggest challenge getting through grad school. I loved discussing stylistic evolution or dating a piece on hearing it, but naming pieces on hearing them? No thank you. I also love organizing sounds based on an inner vision, but once again, the less they are labeled in my mind, the easier they are to work with. Is that Ti or Te?
    I'm not sure what all that is. I will have to think about it.

    See, discussing stylistic evolution or dating a piece on hearing uses more Ti -- you're describing a process for the first, and for the second you are discerning the pattern in something based on reducing it to its core elements, then comparing it to other known patterns. (Does that make sense?)

    Te is much more like library science, lab research, the scientific process, the skills that mechanical engineers use, or an electrician uses, and so forth. Practical mathematical equations -- accounting, bookkeeping, number-crunching, engineering / science experiments with quantifications -- fall into that category as well.

    (I find doing math computations boring, the conceptual math is more interesting, for example!) It's also like people who love to create theories, versus people who like to implement/use theories to organize and do things.

    Imagine a lab technician, who uses high-tech equipment to examine and study forensic evidence. A Te person does very well in that environment. A Ti is less concerned about the outer process and sometimes would get frustrated because the process is so exact and rigorous and all about the external concretes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Awesome analogy then It makes you sound very INTP. I can't picture a Ni-Te saying anything like that easily... certainly not easily and willingly. (I'm trying to picture my GF saying this and I'm cracking up!)
    But I could see an INFJ saying it.

    For an INTJ, it is far too personal and organic. (either that, or they are wasted/drunk off their gourd!)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    PT and Jen, thanks for the excellent explanations.

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    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But I could see an INFJ saying it.

    For an INTJ, it is far too personal and organic. (either that, or they are wasted/drunk off their gourd!)
    That wouldn't be Ni-Te though Perhaps a better way of putting it is that I'm not sure any Te dominant would think this way... But a lot of that has to do with what wildcat said - Te doesn't bother with trying to build that kind of framework around something so mundane. I'm not so sure Fe would tend to do it either... Dominant Nis, especially in cases where the P/J isn't well defined, could do this normally as well.

    If I bring up the concept of a tree with my GF (INTJ), it's more like... Tree? Has bugs. I hate bugs. I hate tree... Tree? It's hot. Tree offer shade. I like tree. It's still different than the S version of Tree? What kind of tree? Is it healthy? How much folliage coverage is there? I got that from my parents...

    But when you talk to an INTP... it's more like Tree? I love nature. Nature is solitude, it connects us. We all need it. It's so peaceful.

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    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Tree, it's a good home for the birds, if it's big enough, it might need water if it's the idiot neighbours across the street, it's going to help keep the house cool in the summer and all that privacy in the winter (it's obviously a blue spruce!). I'm going to have to get more blood and bone meal, this weekend, and the hydrangea that's going in will need to be 10 feet further away, because this sucker is going to get hyouge.

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