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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I am a one man destroyer of plant life... I hate gardening with such a passion that I actually use to sneak out of the house to rip apart plants....Of which, btw, there is nothing cuter than a dog ripping apart a 10 inch thick banana stalk as the owner is literally jumping up on down on it... I'm more likely to pour draino into the flower vase than I am to feel bad for them... when I visit my parents, my only thoughts on the garden is how to flatten and salt their land.... If you need a form of evil personified, I'm sure the trees would agree that I'd be appropriate. I'd be the devil to your treenity anyday.
    Geeez. You look normal enough, but you're a [bleeping] psycho plant killer!

    I tease C because she has what we both affectionately call a "black thumb" -- but you seem to relish the spillage of chlorophyllian blood.

    You should be locked up. Smokey the Bear would be disappointed in you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Geeez. You look normal enough, but you're a [bleeping] psycho plant killer!
    It's always the quiet ones

    You should be locked up. Smokey the Bear would be disappointed in you.
    No no, you have me wrong. I don't like domestic plants... the wild ones are awesome. They don't need to be cared for

  3. #23
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I'll look up some links as well, but for some reason the distinction between these two is not entirely clear to me. Anyone have a good handle on it? Fi-Fe and Si-Se make sense, but the Ni-Ne and Ti-Te bit, not so much for some reason.

    Ti--Looks at logical problems to solve in terms of how they relate to the self.
    Te-Looks at the self in terms of how it relates to logical problems to solve.

    A Ti will pick a system apart because he/she enjoys doing it--internally inspired. Ti also has a lot to do with setting up internally founded goals, for this reason Tis have an internal sense of purpose that Tes have a more difficult time acquiring.

    A Te will give advice to everyone who asks and will enjoy giving advice even when its not desired. Likes to apply logic to the external world, hence they like to organize what is there.

    Fi-Feelings relate to the self. Fi builds an internal sense of purpose, while Fe relies on the external.

    Fe-Self relates to the feelings of others. This is why Fes enjoy giving emotional support like Fis enjoy giving advice.

    Se/Ne-See the external world as a thing in itself, independent of how we perceive it. They tend to think of ideas as something to be shared, not something utilized for our own use. This is why ENPs often have the best presentation/communication skills, and ESPs make the best salesmen because they are attuned with the concrete world and can present it objectively to others. This is also why NPs enjoy sharing knowledge even when they arent sure how reliable it is, while NJs tend not to unless they are certain that it is reliable. Ni scans knowledge it receives in accordance to the way it relates to the self, Ne does not, Ne does not think of knowledge in terms of how it relates to the self, it only thinks of how the self relates to knowledge.


    Si/Ni-Can always be counted on to show us what knowledge we need and under what circumstances. Ni/Si are past-oriented,unlike the Ne/Se, this is why INJs can often remember abstractions that fascinated them long ago despite not having solid memories that ISJs do. Ni in itself is not future oriented, it is only attracted to the future because of its abstract nature which allows for it to link cause and effect and foresee what may happen in the future. Ni/Si are also attracted to certainty more because they think of knowledge in terms of how it relates to the self, so the question they ask is--what do I know, yet Se/Ne asks--what knowledge can I share with others. Or --this sounds interesting, I wonder what I can comment on this..(thinking of how the self relates to what is there to discover)..This is why Se/Ne are natural discoverers and are attracted to novelty and new experiences, because they think of knowledge/concrete world in accordance to how they can impact it..not in terms of how knowledge/concrete world can impact them (Ni/Si) Moreover, Ni will make a vision of how I (self) should live my life, how I could utilize all of these ideas I learn abot to my own advantage (Like Ayn Rand for instance, Or Nietzsche's Zarathustra, most of the existentialist writers were Ni dominant..) and Ne will seperate the object from the subject in its vision, and imagine the world as being an object independent of the subject--the subject relates to the object--not the other way around. Hence, an Ne visionary will envision the big picture and try to come up with a way to change the world--to impact it--Bertrand Russell,Voltaire, Machiavelli are the case in point. (Again, an allusion to how an Ni thinkers will perceive knowledge in terms of how it will change him, and an Ne thinker will perceive it in terms of how he can change what has already been discovered.) This also may explain why ISJs may be afraid of new ideas because they think that ideas by definition are likely to change them and they are afraid of that. Moreover, in philosophy Ni thinkers had a solid foundation for all of their ideas that they never wanted to change and could be hostile to radically different views because they can errode the foundation that they all stand on, whilst the Ne would not have to worry about that because they do not think of knowledge as essential to their being.

    Keep in mind for this Jung's distinction between Introversion and Extroversion.

    Introverts think of the world in terms of how it relates to the self and Extroverts in terms of how the self relates to the world.

    So, to recapitulate. Tes tend to think of logic in terms of how they can relate to it. So they apply themselves to the impersonal standard that has been established by others. Yet Tis question those standards as they think of all problems in terms of how they relate to them. There is nothing fundamental to their thinking in the external world, it is the internal that is truly essential.

    Same with Fe/Fi. Fe applies self to the external values of the community and Fi questions those values and thinks that the true standard comes only from the inside. So they synthesize all that is there in the external world and forge a standard of their own. From this one could adduce that Fes tend to want for their relationships to be fixed and settled while Fis like to toy around with them in order to find the best that there are. Same as Tis like to toy around with problems to solve to find the best solutions while Tes want to find the most practical solutions and be settled there. NTPs are more likely to enjoy arguing as a sport, and NFPs more likely to be adventurous with their relationships --enjoy moving on from one to another. Fe/Te lean towards a Conservative way of thinking (status quo) and Ti/Fi towards liberal.

    Ne/Se think of ideas and the world to perceive in terms of how they can influence it, whilst Ni/Si think of ideas in terms of how they relate to them, how the world--knowledge can change them and not vice versa.

    Hope this helped sort out whatever confusions that be..
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  4. #24
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    I find it extremely difficult to articulate the nature of any of the functions without a suitable pairing function to bind it.

    Eg: Talking about Ti, I have trouble coming up with examples.
    However, I can describe the dynamic of Ti-Ne or Ti-Se, and describe Ti's role in that pair.

    Likewise, Te-Si or Te-Ni make a lot of sense, but I can't talk about Te without implying some form of perception along with it.


    With Te-Si, concrete facts are organized. Si provides specific, unambiguous factoids which can then be sorted or organized in a logical manner, using Te. The end result is an ordered set, where the primary product of such thought process is the imposing of order.

    With Ti-Se, the 'facts' are based in physical reality, a moving, fluid image in which things occur. A surfer sees the waves come at him, focuses on the important part of the wave, and he somehow "knows" at the right moment when to rise up to the wave. The primary product of this thought process is action--somehow having the ability to process a broad, nonspecific array of sensory data and act upon it in a manner which is consistent with his goal of riding the wave. While the externally-visible effect is one of perception-leads-to-action, it must stand to reason that some form of logical thinking was involved, for the mind to compute and predict the right moment at which to lift the board, taking into consideration the body's own neural and muscular lag time. Such unspoken logic is Ti.

    Lenore Thomson described Ti in a manner which I tend to associate with "motor memory," or the automated actions derived from the cerebellum in the back of the brain. It would be interesting to know, on a neurological level, if Ti is somehow implemented in the brain in a manner that is closely coupled with the cerebellum.

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    Yes, definitely, with the exception of mosquitos and slugs. I like to take my salt shaker to the garden when I go slug hunting.
    Gee, Nat, sometimes you are positively primeval!

    (Then again, the slugs have it coming. And the mosquitoes. I read somewhere it would take over a million mosquitoes to suck a human being dry of blood. I wonder how they figured it out.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Trees are related to nature, nature to us, us to the tree... it's a mystical form of treeism, if you will. NTJs just don't think that way... not that they can't, MBTI being preferences and all that, but they just don't.
    I do, in fact, perceive this connection, but in perhaps a different manner. When I see a tree, I think of how the nature of the universe dictates the nature of the galaxies, these dictate the nature of the solar systems, these dictate the nature of the planets, including our earth, and in the framework of all of this, on our earth which would have inevitably arisen given the nature of all things within which it exists, it was inevitable that a thing such as a tree would come into being. In this way, the tree reflects all of the universe, of which I am a part.

    For a while I was avidly atheist, having turned away from a fundamental Christian upbringing, but as I get older and, admittedly, as I am increasingly forced to confront my own mortality, I am increasingly interested in the question of what the underlying essence that dictates all of the above mentioned is. What the Liquid is from which the crystals of Reality arise, if you will. I'm still assembling a belief system, but what I believe in presently combines elements of Buddhism, Jung's synchronicity, and the present findings of quantum mechanics.

    That all sounded kind of artsy-fartsy, though, for which I apologize.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  7. #27
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Gee, Nat, sometimes you are positively primeval!

    (Then again, the slugs have it coming. And the mosquitoes. I read somewhere it would take over a million mosquitoes to suck a human being dry of blood. I wonder how they figured it out.)
    I h-a-t-e slugs.

    BTW, when I read the NT tree descriptions of my SJ his eyes glazed over and he said "enough, I have manure left to go spread on the lawn".

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  8. #28
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The S/N dichotomy does not affect the dichotomy of Extraversion. These are basically separate processes even when they coexist.

    There is always the standpoint of E. E is subdivided in impulsiveness and activity. These are separate processes.

    From the standpoint of E, P is impulsiveness and J is activity.

    E does not divide between N and S nor between T and F but only between J and P.

    Therefore from the standpoint of the J/P dichotomy of E, N does not differ from S; or T from F. E in this sense is colour blind.
    Oh I think the ENTJ would argue this. There can be a world of difference with an EN as opposed to an ES but I do get your point that the difference is comparatively mild when compare to IN and IS. Mind you though Sdalek breaks that mould too. As always it is dependant on the individual.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Ne/Se = impulsion = P
    Te/Fe = activity = J
    Damn fine point.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Ni/Si is not E. It is the exact opposite. Ni/Si is stable.
    Ti/Fi is not E. It is the exact opposite. Ti/Fi is non-active.
    I'm not sure about it not being extroverted, there are many type with this as the second function though most I have experienced do tend to display less influence from their second function than the introverts.

    Perhaps extroverts do place more import on their primary function than introverts? Intensity over balance perhaps?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    BTW, when I read the NT tree descriptions of my SJ his eyes glazed over and he said "enough, I have manure left to go spread on the lawn".
    Well, I suppose that's okay: The world needs manure spreaders too.

    .... i wonder if that joke will get an ugly reaction...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    BTW, when I read the NT tree descriptions of my SJ his eyes glazed over and he said "enough, I have manure left to go spread on the lawn".
    ...I must have missed the post where NT trees were describing your husband.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

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