Jack Flak's Function System Adventure

[Travo7]

So why are you saying that INTJs do more Te than they do Ni?

I was just thinking that...

 

[Jack Flak]

I was just thinking that...

I suggest you read my answer then.

 

[Salomé]

This is unimportant. You have to call Intuition something.

? If it's unimportant, wth is this thread about?

I am not getting this at all. You haven't discredited function theory other than to say it's rubbish - which is less than persuasive. And you haven't provided any reasons to suggest why your approach makes more sense.

 

[Xander]

Not a different function but a different arena in which it is applied. Ask an INTJ to reason themselves and they think for hours and it takes effort. Ask an INTP and it flows like prematured wine (or bilge). It's all thinking but it's a notation upon which arena the subject prefers to apply it in.

Oh and I think you'll find that INTPs are primarily judging in their thinking but they are P when extraverting. J/P is external.

 

[Salomé]

You have to determine I/E independently. And if you're NFJ your Primary function is Feeling, which commonly works in tandem with Intuition.

How can you say I/E are independent of Feeling, when feeling in an INFP and feeling in an ESFJ are such qualitatively and experiencially different things?

This makes no sense.

If you don't want to call it introverted feeling and extroverted feeling, you may as well call it apples and oranges.

 

[Jack Flak]

? If it's unimportant, wth is this thread about?

I am not getting this at all. You haven't discredited function theory other than to say it's rubbish - which is less than persuasive. And you haven't provided any reasons to suggest why your approach makes more sense.

Yes I have: It's simpler. It's all based on the four preferences. If you're I, you're Introverted. If you're N, you prefer Intuition. If you're T, you prefer Thinking. If you're P, you prefer Perceiving, hence your Primary function is Intuition.

I'm convinced that the only reason anyone has a problem with it is because the less correct information has been available and accepted by so many for so long.

Not a different function but a different arena in which it is applied. Ask an INTJ to reason themselves and they think for hours and it takes effort. Ask an INTP and it flows like prematured wine (or bilge). It's all thinking but it's a notation upon which arena the subject prefers to apply it in.

Reasoning, as it's commonly referred to, is not as simple as the Thinking function.

Oh and I think you'll find that INTPs are primarily judging in their thinking but they are P when extraverting. J/P is external.

Yeah, I know. Thinking is always Judging, and Perceiving is always related to input--The present environment, or memory.

 

[Jack Flak]

How can you say I/E are independent of Feeling, when feeling in an INFP and feeling in an ESFJ are such qualitatively and experiencially different things?

This makes no sense.

Stop. You're arguing against things I have never said, nor thought.

Use of the functions is affected by I/E. It doesn't change the definitions of the functions.

 

[Travo7]

Not a different function but a different arena in which it is applied. Ask an INTJ to reason themselves and they think for hours and it takes effort. Ask an INTP and it flows like prematured wine (or bilge). It's all thinking but it's a notation upon which arena the subject prefers to apply it in.

Oh and I think you'll find that INTPs are primarily judging in their thinking but they are P when extraverting. J/P is external.

Right, but maybe the reason an INTP can do this is because he has spent time thinking about it, since Ti is a judging function. In other words it's been "set in stone".
An INTJ may have take longer because Ni is a perceiving function, not a decision-making one.

 

[Salomé]

Yes I have: It's simpler. It's all based on the four preferences. If you're I, you're Introverted. If you're N, you prefer Intuition. If you're T, you prefer Thinking. If you're P, you prefer Perceiving, hence your Primary function is Intuition.

I'm convinced that the only reason anyone has a problem with it is because the less correct information has been available and accepted by so many for so long.

Because you're the only one with the power to discriminate between a valid argument and a load of nonsense, I suppose. Pretty arrogant.

Your preferences aren't conceptually related. I/E is an attitude, so is J/P. S/N, T/F are functions. You can't just lump them all together and call them the same sort of thing. It's invalid.

 

[Salomé]

Stop. You're arguing against things I have never said, nor thought.

Use of the functions is affected by I/E. It doesn't change the definitions of the functions.

We can only define the functions by the behaviours associated with them. We can't model what is actually going on the in the brain (other than with the crude PET scanning I was talking about earlier). Therefore, if the behaviours associated with Fi and Fe are different, then Fi and Fe are different.

 

[Jack Flak]

Because you're the only one with the power to discriminate between a valid argument and a load of nonsense, I suppose. Pretty arrogant.

I'm not the only one who disagrees with MBTI functions, if popularity contests are your preferred method of logic.

Your preferences aren't conceptually related. I/E is an attitude, so is J/P. S/N, T/F are functions. You can't just lump them all together and call them the same sort of thing. It's invalid.

Thank you for the psychology lesson, because I didn't know all that already. /sarcasm.

I/E is already included in 16-type, I didn't introduce it. It affects behavior and personality, so there's no reason to remove it from a system of differentiation.

 

[Jack Flak]

We can only define the functions by the behaviours associated with them. We can't model what is actually going on the in the brain (other than with the crude PET scanning I was talking about earlier).

So you can't possibly be arguing for the more specific and convoluted conjecture that is MBTI function theory? I agree with you.

Therefore, if the behaviours associated with Fi and Fe are different, then Fi and Fe are different.

Feeling applied to a concept and applied to something external can be defined differently, but I choose not to for the sake of sense and simplicity.

--

Are you playing Devil's Advocate to get me to clarify myself? Good strat, if so. Otherwise STFU!

 

[Salomé]

I'm not the only one who disagrees with MBTI functions, if popularity contests are your preferred method of logic.

You're also not the only one able to discriminate between bullshit and a plausible theory.

So you can't possibly be arguing for the more specific and convoluted conjecture that is MBTI function theory? [/B]

I am, as it happens.

Feeling applied to a concept and applied to something external can be defined differently, but I choose not to for the sake of sense and simplicity.

"Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler" ~ most famous INTP of all.
--

Are you playing Devil's Advocate to get me to clarify myself? Good strat, if so. Otherwise STFU!

Are you feeling challenged? Is it your Fi or your Fe, d'ya think?

 

[Jack Flak]

Are you feeling challenged? Is it your Fi or your Fe, d'ya think?

No, I'm not, I'm just pondering your motivation. Okay, you're sticking with MBTI functions, congratulations. I'll leave you to it.

 

[INTJMom]

? If it's unimportant, wth is this thread about?

I am not getting this at all. You haven't discredited function theory other than to say it's rubbish - which is less than persuasive. And you haven't provided any reasons to suggest why your approach makes more sense.

 

[Jack Flak]

Thank you for your constant insight here at MBTI Central Forums, INTJMom. Like the rise of the sun every morning, we can count on you.

 

[Salomé]

Thank you for your constant insight here at MBTI Central Forums, INTJMom. Like the rise of the sun every morning, we can count on you.

Hey, you leave Mom out of it.
She's entitled to appreciate greatness when she sees it.
And let's face it, in this thread, that's gonna be me.

 

[INTJMom]

Thank you for your constant insight here at MBTI Central Forums, INTJMom. Like the rise of the sun every morning, we can count on you.

You have cut me to the quick.

 

[Jack Flak]

You have cut me to the quick.

You drew first blood!

 

[zago]

Yet another way to describe the sixteen types, and one with far less conjecture than MBTI function theory. Influenced by Jung, MBTI, Socionics, and others, but tied to no system I'm aware of. All differences are intentional, not errors. I do believe this to be more accurate than the above systems, but if nothing else, this may illustrate that they aren't set in stone.

If you are familiar with MBTI functions, please consider the extraverted and introverted components of a function to be combined into one function, for the purposes of this theory. For example, Ni and Ne are combined into Intuition.

Introversion and Extroversion are considered to define the types separately from their Primary and Support functions. The Primary function typically occupies the concentration of individuals. The Support function is the most dominant function of either Perceiving or Judging nature, the opposite of the Primary function. The remaining two are considered relatively unimportant, and their use is not specifically defined. The sum of the characteristics defines the type for the purposes of this theory.

INTP:

Introverted.
Primary function: Intuition
Support function: Thinking

ENTP:

Extroverted.
Primary function: Intuition
Support function: Thinking

INTJ:

Introverted.
Primary function: Thinking
Support function: Intuition

ENTJ:

Extroverted.
Primary function: Thinking
Support function: Intuition

INFP:

Introverted.
Primary function: Intuition
Support function: Feeling

ENFP:

Extroverted.
Primary function: Intuition
Support function: Feeling

INFJ:

Introverted.
Primary function: Feeling
Support function: Intuition

ENFJ:

Extroverted.
Primary function: Feeling
Support function: Intuition

ISTP:

Introverted.
Primary function: Sensing
Support function: Thinking

ESTP:

Extroverted.
Primary function: Sensing
Support function: Thinking

ISFP:

Introverted.
Primary function: Sensing
Support function: Feeling

ESFP:

Extroverted.
Primary function: Sensing
Support function: Feeling

ISTJ:

Introverted.
Primary function: Thinking
Support function: Sensing

ESTJ:

Extroverted.
Primary function: Thinking
Support function: Sensing

ISFJ:

Introverted.
Primary function: Feeling
Support function: Sensing

ESFJ:

Extroverted.
Primary function: Feeling
Support function: Sensing

Glossary:

Perceiving function: A function used to gain information.
Judging function: A function used to assign value.
Intuition: Acquisition of information other than what can be directly sensed with the five senses. Synonymous with Perception in other contexts.
Sensing: Acquisition of unmodified information gathered with the five senses.
Thinking: Logical processing of information.
Feeling: Emotional processing of information.

I'm having trouble making sense of this. First, the names are off now. Normally, the P and J signify which function is extroverted. With your system it is opposite--I don't see why keep them at all. It just makes things confusing.

P and J no longer mean anything now that you've combined Ne and Ni, Se and Si, Te and Ti, and Fe and Fi. Your INTP should be an NT and your INTJ should be a TN. With your system, only 2/4 letters matter in determining the type of the individual. With MBTI, all 4 letters matter....

Also, you seem to have reduced the system to 8 types instead of 16, so I am more confused now because of the E and the I. Why have E and I at all if, say, an ENTP and INTP have the same dominant and secondary functions?

The rest of this post comes from my personal experience...

I think the most telling examples of how MBTI works are people who differ from you by 1 letter. I am an INTP, for instance, so let me look at 2 of my best friends, an ENTP and an ISTP.

The ENTP thinks in a very similar fasion to me, but he is clearly a people person. He is not afraid to go up to someone and do something crazy or ridiculous, and this is in fact his normal way of communicating about half the time. I would love to be able to do these things, but I have dominant Ti--I am much more inclined to stay back as an observer and analyze what is going on.... but that doesn't mean that sometimes I act goofy and random, as someone with dominant Ne is very prone to do.

The ISTP is even more similar to me, but we are such good friends because the N/S difference makes for a disparity in our point of view which leads us to something we both love doing--arguing. That is our dominant Ti nature. We love to get to the very bottom of something and put our point of view into a perfect set of words. The ISTP notices details in the environment much more than I do, and I talk about philosophy and big picture ideas much more than he does, but overall we still have the same dominant mode of communication, and thus we get along much better than me and the ENTP do.

Overall I see distinct boundaries between each of the 8 functions and I can easily see how they fit into the scheme of MBTI/Jung. It's possible that you may be mistyped and therefore see a need to correct the system. I wouldn't rule out ENTP, INTJ, or ENTJ for you. You seem to be a lot more extroverted than most INTPs.