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  1. #301
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    I think this discussions scope is far greater than that of MBTT and requires a lot more information and context than we can necessarily cover and come to a realistic conclusion on.
    In general, I think one of the main discussions concerning the MBTI itself is exactly what kind of scope it's expected to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    I think the terms (and the extension in terms of applicability and interaction) as presently stated are too vague and need to be more rigorously defined based on just what it is we are trying to prove.
    Verily.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Some defining and validating of terms is what
    this requires.
    I've defined the terms in the OP, though vaguely. Some of the "clarification" I've attempted to provide dissonance for example, well, in my naive hope that he may "get" what I've been saying, doesn't fall in line 100% to what I believed, or intended. I was trying to phrase it differently, and perhaps strayed too far. Oops. The OP stands.

    I could probably use Orangey's help right about now.

  3. #303
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I've defined the terms in the OP, though vaguely. Some of the "clarification" I've attempted to provide dissonance for example, well, in my naive hope that he may "get" what I've been saying, doesn't fall in line 100% to what I believed, or intended. I was trying to phrase it differently, and perhaps strayed too far. Oops. The OP stands.

    I could probably use Orangey's help right about now.
    Ah, well, all other matters aside, you do get an A for effort (I have not yet decided to consider your system very heavily). Anyhow, most people do not give any definitions, and I know that Nocapszy wasn't using your definitions. At the very least, I have a link to a book now, courtesy of the ______ that has now stolen my avatar.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #304
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by locke View Post
    Were you expecting, "Jack vs. Locke, rivals 4eva?"
    Nooo, if I could expect things I would go for a IJ personality. I personally fell in love with the ISFJ. He at least would not have to deal with stupid problems or would he ?!
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #305
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Okay, I am going to attempt to explain why I think that Jack's theory here is convincing. This is my interpretation of what he's written. But first, one thing needs to be clarified in order to proceed.

    The function order beyond a primary and support is not important, since even with regular MBTI it's so speculative that it's almost useless.


    Let us proceed, then...

    Part I: MBTI

    In MBTI, judging and perceiving, or the J and the P, indicates which function, T - F - N - S, we direct towards the outside world, or extrovert. Some people direct their perceiving functions (N/S) to the outside, and others direct their judging functions (T/F) to the outside. Keep in mind that the italicized use of the words perceiving and judging are not the same as the perceiving and judging that J and P denote.

    This is the basis for the descriptions of J's and P's, because a person with a preference for J will direct their judging function outward, making decision-making an important priority for them, and a person with a P preference will direct their perceiving functions outward, making the gathering of information an important priority for them.

    Alright, so far so good. That seems to make sense intuitively. But then along comes introversion and extroversion, which for some reason must correspond to the direction of the primary function. So if you are an introvert, your primary function must be introverted. This overrides the J and P such that whichever of the preferred functions corresponds to introversion or extroversion gets to be the primary function. So even if your preferred way of interacting with the world, or extroverting, is through judgment (T/F), because you are a J, your orientation towards introversion or extroversion, in the E or I sense, demands that the function corresponding to that direction become the primary function. Case in point: if you know someone is a J because they are good at making decisions and are natural organizers, that they are a T, and that they are introverted (by the descriptions, energized by being alone, etc...), then the introversion demands that intuition, or the introverted perceiving function, and not thinking, be the primary function. Thus, the extroverted, thinking, judger will retain the judging function as the primary function, but the introverted, thinker, judger will not. (Doesn't this seem rather arbitrary, given that the only observable difference between the two is that one is quiet and the other is probably not? Why does that constitute a shift in the primary function?).

    Now, even if we keep the function directions, it seems to me that there is no good reason why the I/E should be more important than the J/P. In other words, the reason why the primary function (in terms of direction) needs to correspond to the introversion or extroversion of an individual seems rather arbitrary. And in fact, the type descriptions tend to emphasize the difference more in terms of J/P than I/E, especially for types who share the I or the E but have different J or P.

    Part II: Jack's System


    In Jack's system, both of these complications are elided because the distinction between outward oriented and inward oriented functions is collapsed. The only factor that is of importance is the J/P distinction because it determines the primary function (if someone is a J, they use their judgment function more, and if someone is a P, they use their perceiving function more).

    I and E can be seen as separate functions (or if you don't want to call them functions, then orientations). So someone is introverted, not because they use their dominant function in an introverted way, but because they exhibit behaviors attributed to introverts...namely, they are in general quiet, like to have alone time, get energized by solitude, and so on. Similar ways are used to determine extroversion, only in this case using exuberance, social effusiveness, and gregariousness as determinants.

    This leaves the direction of the functions used to be determined by the situation, and by overall preference for introversion or extroversion. This clears up problems that come up with, say, I's using many of the functions in an introverted way (with me, this is Ti, Fi, Ni, even though Fi and Ni are supposed to be way down there in use). It also skips over a lot of the ambiguity involved in determining what use of the function is introverted, and which is extroverted (and don't tell me this is something easy...it may be in the function descriptions, but in practice it is rarely clear).

    And, like I've said 'til I'm blue in the face, it corresponds more closely to the type descriptions, because judging and perceiving play a more observable role in the way functions are used than introversion or extroversion.

    I hope this helps, and everyone is welcome to pick apart this analysis.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #306
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    Thank you very much, Orangey. It seems you are incapable of misunderstanding my intent, and I am grateful.

  7. #307
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Thank you very much, Orangey. It seems you are incapable of misunderstanding my intent, and I am grateful.
    Yep . Just hope I didn't miss something...it's pretty late here.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #308
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Just curious orangey. What does Veritasiness mean ? I think there is a good joke in it, but I think I cant get it due to language differences
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #309
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Just curious orangey. What does Veritasiness mean ? I think there is a good joke in it, but I think I cant get it due to language differences
    It's a silly joke. At the University of Michigan, the slogan is Artes, scientia, veritas, which means art, science, and truth. I added the -siness to the end of veritas to make it roughly equivalent to "truthiness", which is the term used by Colbert when he's talking about people using rhetoric to fabricate partially true statements.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #310
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    hahaha, ok that IS great

    I'ld go for: Artes, Scientia, Veritatisininess

    But that's a different topic for a different thread
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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