User Tag List

First 8161718192028 Last

Results 171 to 180 of 393

  1. #171
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    ^Yes it is perception, the way he defines it. He defines perception too.

    Perception/Judgment is just unconscious processing/conscious processing.

    You should learn Jung before trashing his system.

  2. #172
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    type
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    You should learn Jung before trashing his system.
    I am familiar with the man's work. He intended to be right, but was only half right. This is the other half. I give you the advice I gave Haphazard, another Judging Primary. Keep this system at a distance, but don't forget about it, and see how you feel about it in the future. We may never agree, but we certainly won't agree today.

    Also keep in mind that your Support function is extremely present in your mental processes.

  3. #173
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Lol, I don't need to be condescended to here. I get your system. It's simple. I'm not stupid.

    I surely get Jung's system better than you do; I'll trust my comparison of the two systems over yours, because you don't even get the functions.

  4. #174
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    You're wrong. Any introvert that's typed themselves by function order will have their J and P backwards in your system.
    But I think what he's trying to demonstrate is that function order is not precise, and that typing based on the traditional MBTI definitions is not accurate, and therefore not useful. I tend to agree, because the definitions of the introverted and extroverted functions are not really all that clear (for example, both Fi and Fe have been described in places as capable of producing deep empathy, and Ti has never really had a good definition other than being the more intuitive, mystical version of Te).

    Perhaps it would be easier to conceive of switching the function order yet remaining the same type if the person typed themselves based on the descriptions, rather than on Jung's function definitions. Personally, I tried using the function orders to type but didn't find it useful since they seldom corroborated what I observed in my own behavior and in the behaviors of others.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #175
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    type
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Lol, I don't need to be condescended to here. I get your system. It's simple. I'm not stupid.

    I surely get Jung's system better than you do; I'll trust my comparison of the two systems over yours, because you don't even get the functions.
    It's not about getting it, it's about changing your notions of what is correct and what isn't. Which is, on average, much easier for Perceiving Primaries. I don't think you're stupid, or close to it.

    You may, however, ease back a bit on the "You don't get the functions" business. I get them so well it would blow Jung's mind. He confused information intake with information processing at least some of the time.

  6. #176
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    But I think what he's trying to demonstrate is that function order is not precise, and that typing based on the traditional MBTI definitions is not accurate, and therefore not useful. I tend to agree, because the definitions of the introverted and extroverted functions are not really all that clear (for example, both Fi and Fe have been described in places as capable of producing deep empathy, and Ti has never really had a good definition other than being the more intuitive, mystical version of Te).
    In MBTI, the only part of function order that is precise is the dominant function. The rest of the "prescribed" order should be questioned, I agree. But there are perfectly simple ways of determining type from functions. You pick the dominant, then you pick the direction of the auxiliary and tertiary. Voila.

    And the definitions for the functions actually are quite clear, it's just that 95% of the people here don't know what they're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    It's not about getting it, it's about changing your notions of what is correct and what isn't. Which is, on average, much easier for Perceiving Primaries. I don't think you're stupid, or close to it.

    You may, however, ease back a bit on the "You don't get the functions" business. I get them so well it would blow Jung's mind. He confused information intake with information processing at least some of the time.
    You obviously don't get them, because you're confusing "processing" and "judging". Perceiving functions do a ton of processing actually. Remember, he defined "perceiving" in a specific way. Not in the general way.

  7. #177
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    Who gets who is irrelevant. But who says you do not get someone is wrong
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #178
    Kickin' Ass since 1984 GargoylesLegacy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Socionics
    esTp
    Posts
    1,400

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Who gets who is irrelevant. But who says you do not get someone is wrong
    Very wise and well-chosen Words. So true too.
    Rule #1: Driver picks the music. Shotgun shuts his cakehole.

    Again, Demons I get, but people are just crazy.

    ESTP? o.O

  9. #179
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    For example, the type descriptions of INTJ tend to focus on how well they are able to make decisions and formulate contingency plans using the information at hand, yet states later that their dominant function is intuition (a perceiving, not decision making function). And INTP's usually get a more "indecisive" treatment in the descriptions, yet are assigned thinking, a decision making function, as their dominant function. Plus there was usually disagreement (on this board as well as others) on what behaviors or thoughts or feelings counted as the "introverted" or "extroverted" type, and a lot of the time they could be either, or the difference simply is not clear.

    I don't see a problem with either of those things. Judging functions aren't necessarily about decision making in the "picking and choosing a plan of action" sense. It is also a decision to remain on the fence about many issues, as INTPs do. In reality INTPs are extremely decisive, as is their habit of life. An ENTP will use Ne and make things up spontaneously as he goes along, but an INTP like me will be much, MUCH more concerned of making sense of everything and fitting it all into a massive framework (with the unconscious goal of never having to be surprised or confused by anything again).

    This is why INTPs are very reluctant to enter unpredictable social situations. Our Ti preference is so strong we feel that we must understand the rules of the situation before we even partake in it. ENTPs have so much less trouble with this.

  10. #180
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Socionics
    SLE
    Posts
    6,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    In MBTI, the only part of function order that is precise is the dominant function. The rest of the "prescribed" order should be questioned, I agree. But there are perfectly simple ways of determining type from functions. You pick the dominant, then you pick the direction of the auxiliary and tertiary. Voila.

    And the definitions for the functions actually are quite clear, it's just that 95% of the people here don't know what they're talking about.
    I've read Jung on the functions, and I don't find them clear at all, especially if we're trying to apply them on a practical level. If they were, there wouldn't be such dispute over which behaviors belong to which function direction.

    Also, function order is not the only thing that jack flack changed. He also collapsed the introverted/extroverted distinction, which then calls for a change in the function order so that the types can remain faithful to the MBTI descriptions. For example, if we collapsed the introverted/extroverted distinction, then an INTP and INTJ would only be different in that for the former, the dominant function is thinking, and for the latter, the dominant function is intuition (I know you know this, but bear with me so I can get my thoughts out). No Ti or Te, or Ni and Ne. Just intuition and thinking.

    And if we take function dominance to mean frequency of use (and I can't really think of any other way to take it), then the INTP would be using the judging/decision making process more frequently than the INTJ, who would be using the information-gathering/perceptive process of intuition more frequently. This, however, seems to be the opposite of the type descriptions, which calls the INTP the more indecisive, flighty of the two. Same with INFP and INFJ.

    My point is that if you get rid of the introverted/extroverted distinctions in the functions, then you kind of have to change the function order if you want the types to stay true to their descriptions.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO