Time and Type (S/N)

[Uberfuhrer]

Originally Posted by rivercrow

No, I don't think so. NPs do make plans and get things done, although I suspect an NP's plans probably factor in more "unknown unknowns."

For example, I think NJs may be happier with traditional project management and NPs may be happier with extreme project management.

Well, I guess an NP would have a long term vision and be spontaneous about it, while the NJ will have the vision but be more inclined to carefully plan that vision out first. But I think, regardless, Intuitive perception would enjoy fantasizing about that sort of thing more than a Sensor, since Sensors think with their feet on the ground.

I think a Sensor (especially SJ) is the kind of person who shuns an Intuitive's dreams when the S tells the N that his/her dream is unrealistic.

ENxPs and ENxJs are probably the best chasers of dreams.

[rivercrow]

Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer

Well, I guess an NP would have a long term vision and be spontaneous about it, while the NJ will have the vision but be more inclined to carefully plan that vision out first. But I think, regardless, Intuitive perception would enjoy fantasizing about that sort of thing more than a Sensor, since Sensors think with their feet on the ground.

I think a Sensor (especially SJ) is the kind of person who shuns an Intuitive's dreams when the S tells the N that his/her dream is unrealistic.

This is why I keep trying to learn how to communicate with Sensors in general. Sensing brings insights to the table that I miss sometimes when I get going. Also, it's important for me to learn how to convince Sensors that I actually have considered the practical elements of my schemes, for both personal and professional reasons. Also, the time awareness of Sensors is interesting because it's so different from mine, particularly when I am not part of their schedules.

I've had a couple xNTJs tell me my dreams are unrealistic. I think that's related to the pairing of Ni and Te, which can act as blinkers sometimes, so that xNTJs only see as feasible what their own visions dictate. I've had similar events with ENFJs as well, but they don't argue as much so they're easier to ignore.

[bluebell]

Originally Posted by rivercrow

I'll let the cat out of the bag now.

S and N are related to time-orientation. There was a study done to see if there was any kind of correlation between S:N preference and life-planning. As you might suspect, there did seem to be a correlation. Sensors tended to look forward in shorter increments than did iNtuitors. Interestingly, INTJs had the longest look forward, up to 40 years.

I'm trying to locate the results of the study at the moment, but I seem to have mislaid my notes.

I don't think there was any data on the age of the respondents, which I think is also important. I know my own plans have lengthened from when I was 20 (I'm now 37), so I wonder if that's generally true.

Hmm. The whole concept of life planning is a mystery to me and my INTP other half. To be honest, when I read the OP and the poll options, my first reaction was WTF, I don't get what you're asking. Then I remembered I want to try to get a promotion next year and thought, sweet, I can actually vote with something. I've got some vague plans to get a promotion, but it will be winging it completely.

I'm 35 now. Now that I'm thinking about it, I had more life plans in my late teens and early 20s, in terms of actually having plans a few years into the future. But life didn't turn out like that. If you have the experience of random shite happening out of your control, you kinda get over the life planning thing. It's actually kind of pointless and restricting IMO (sorry to be blunt, but that's what I think). Better to wing it and go with the flow, take opportunities as you find them, roll with the punches.

I'm forced to plan ahead for the next 2 years at work. But I'm keeping the details as vague as I can get away with because I much prefer winging it - things will change so much in the next 2 years which you can't plan for.

[Nighthawk]

The only consistency I have found in my life ... is that I never know what I will be doing or where I am 5 years down the road. I plan out about that far. Except with investments, where I go out past 20.

[Uberfuhrer]

And I don't really focus on the future, I mostly focus on my own alternative reality.

[cafe]

I have vague plans about what I'd like to be doing in thirty years. [I want to buy an RV and travel the country with my hubby, stopping to play with grandchildren along the way. I think if we keep our income to this level or a little better, adjusted for inflation, and keep up our current level of retirement investing, we ought to be able to do it.] But I'm not sure if what I do qualifies as planning in this context or if it's just daydreaming.

["?"]

Originally Posted by rivercrow

S and N are related to time-orientation. There was a study done to see if there was any kind of correlation between S:N preference and life-planning. As you might suspect, there did seem to be a correlation. Sensors tended to look forward in shorter increments than did iNtuitors. Interestingly, INTJs had the longest look forward, up to 40 years.

So let's put this in perspective for the umpteenth time. Not all sensors are the same (SJs v. SPs, SFJs v. STJs, SFPs v. STPs and all of the variants of these types), as well as those preferring intuition are different. Intuition does not equate to long-term planning (based on the example that you gave), as evidenced on the responses to this thread. It may for INJs (maybe not for INFJs), however I am not sure whether an ENTJ will make a life plan, because the Se is prevalent in their make-up.

As for my planning I go five years, however start making modifications usually within the first two years. I, like INTPs, remain flexible beyond five years. I do think that a forty year plan is a bit exaagerated, even for an INTJ. ISTJs may not have their career path figured out, however I can guarantee they have their retirement and financial plans well figured out.

[Uberfuhrer]

I selected 3-5 years -- right around the middle -- because I don't really know when things are going to happen. I don't think anyone can predict the future.

My imaginary constructs hardly ever have any foreseeable connection with reality, partly because I have really no way of knowing how to approach goals, and I also don't have the kinds of connections to achieve my "pie-in-the-sky" dreams. So therefore, my long-range planning is not numerically measured.

[rivercrow]

Originally Posted by "?"

So let's put this in perspective for the umpteenth time. Not all sensors are the same (SJs v. SPs, SFJs v. STJs, SFPs v. STPs and all of the variants of these types), as well as those preferring intuition are different. Intuition does not equate to long-term planning (based on the example that you gave), as evidenced on the responses to this thread. It may for INJs (maybe not for INFJs), however I am not sure whether an ENTJ will make a life plan, because the Se is prevalent in their make-up.

Yes, you're right--I didn't mean to say that all Ns are good at long-term planning nor that all Ss are bad at it. You're right--what we're seeing in this thread kills that hypothesis. So I have to ask about the study itself.

Nor did I mean that all Sensors are the same. All Ns aren't the same either; I've had arguments with people over the "true nature" of INTPs. I have an ESTP friend who has the next 20 years of her life planned out, which amazes me--not because of Type, but because she's just an amazing individual. All I have--because my financial adviser and counselor both told me to get it--is a 10 year plan.

As for my planning I go five years, however start making modifications usually within the first two years. I, like INTPs, remain flexible beyond five years. I do think that a forty year plan is a bit exaagerated, even for an INTJ. ISTJs may not have their career path figured out, however I can guarantee they have their retirement and financial plans well figured out.

I'm not sure about ISTJs. I know a few, and each of them are in the same place as me--vague awareness of needing to prepare for retirement, working toward something, but no hammered out plans.

Now, I personally know two INTJs who have had their lives from 20 to 65 planned out. Real life is causing pesky problems, but it's fascinating to me that they keep their clocks going in the background....

[ptgatsby]

Originally Posted by rivercrow

Yes, you're right--I didn't mean to say that all Ns are good at long-term planning nor that all Ss are bad at it. You're right--what we're seeing in this thread kills that hypothesis. So I have to ask about the study itself.

I have to agree with the original study. I believe that the flaw here is more likely to come from;

1) The casual typing here is probably about 60% accurate (this is guesstimated, naturally).

2) Forum regulars will be biased towards different specific traits than the general population.

3) We tend to measure open ended questions in terms of ability, not preference. For example, if I was to answer the question, I'd say that I plan 3-5 years in advance. However, all my spreadsheets (somewhere in excess of hundreds) project at least 30 years into the future, or derive an immediate solution to my assumptions (rent vs buy). Different people measure time and plans in different ways - I don't have a career plan, but I have a retirement plan (big empty 30 year space ). I was planning my wedding for a couple of years whereas my GF (INTJ) hasn't even thought about it. But ask me to show you anything tangible and I couldn't show you a single tangible wedding plan... my GF could, despite saying she hasn't planned a thing. To her it's not a plan if it isn't fixed.


For example, in the N thing...

I project into the distant future - early on in my spreadsheet fun I was projecting beyond my natural lifespan without even realising it. To me they were just models. They were a way of understanding how things work, and for me, that meant into the distant future. If you sit me down and talk to me about where things are going I tend to expand into more and more uncertainty, building theories way way off into the future.

I'm extremely strong N (and in terms of FFM, open - which also has a time horizon component). Compare this to my GF who isn't that strong of an N, who rarely plans beyond the next few events. However, when she plans, she *plans*.

It's about the concept of time. Ns prefer seeing how things relate, and in theory, they relate things into the far future. Ss tend to see how things are and aren't as comfortable projecting into the future. The corollary is that Ns tend to project in to the future accurately, relatively speaking, but still extremely badly. They do so despite lacking sufficient information to make an accurate guess. Ss deal with the realities as they are now, and as such, are rarely wrong but simply don't risk being wrong by seeing too far into the future. How this manifests itself in planning differs. INTJs, for example, are well known to be project planners - but if you take project plans from an INTJ and an ISTJ, there is a bias towards the INTJ building lag time into the project, always depending on the individual project's needs. ISTJs lag time is almost always identical, and often creates problems further down the path. Their method of planning involves setting the plan according to fixed milestones, not reading into the future to anticipate needs. When individuals operate outside their normal time horizons, they tend to either rely on outside help or extremely static "I've done it so shut up" kinds of plans. It's pretty common in finance, where the majority of people just want a plan, not to work through it. A common problem with dealing with SJs is that they hate the concept of assumptions - rate of return is always assumed, etc. Variance is a big issue with them! With SPs, for example, they simply want to make sure it is taken care of - they rarely care what the assumptions are, they just accept that they are there. Yet, they are the same ones that will call you if the one year return is bad.

In a similar way, INTJs vs INTPs may have the same time horizon but vastly different views on how to plan. The INTP will often have multiple views on how to build a schedule. When I built a schedule for an ENTP project manager and handed over to a SJ manager, the immediate comment was that list of schedule impacts was simply too large - and not relevent.

In a similar way, my GF just called me to ask if I had this Friday off. At work, the SJ boss would prefer not booking time off too far into the future because it's her job to make sure that there are no projects that will be impacted - makes sense. My GF, however, didn't want to make plans until I had the time off. Both operate off the same basic view on planning - variance is evil. The time horizon isn't correlated to that.

[/rambling]

Anyway, this is something that has always interested me... From what I know, the general conclusion is that there is a correlation between N and time horizons, the planning bit was more about how far you think into the future - and lastly, I believe the research shows that the correlation is largely from clumping - but the spread is still fairly large. Not the strongest correlation, IOW.