INXJ closed-minded certitude

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by Economica

Psst, Jen, just hinting at a reality check budges an INXJ not an inch.

Also, I would only accept a post where I claimed, in no uncertain terms, that I think that I'm always right to refute my claim that I don't think that I'm always right.

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I haven't voted because I don't view INTJ's as having close minded certitude. I would describe them as having open minded certitude. INTJ's are very willing to listen to another's viewpoint and to receive correction. It's just that they seem deceptively sure about their all of their ideas regardless of what they are.

Originally Posted by cafe

My daughter is so funny because she will make some assertion without thinking much about it as if it is Absolute Truth, then I will tell her that she is wrong and why. If I'm undeniably right, she will say "Exactly!"

It's like watching a cat commit some ungraceful act, then immediately begin bathing itself. "I meant to do that!"

I have a similar experience with an INTJ friend of mine. Whenever you point out a flaw in his argument he retorts, "That's what I'm saying!" He says that even if it's obviously the exact opposite of what he's been saying.

[SolitaryWalker]

Originally Posted by Economica

Twice now I have posted the following regarding what I find is the most common, vexing and self-destructive problem area for INTJs (and possibly INFJs?), namely closed-minded certitude:

Tell me about it..

Watch Cyberflauner in this thread..at least look at posts 25 and 30...30 especially..



The Relationship between Language and Culture: Philosophy Forums

and in this thread..after I thoroughly answered all of his hostile criticisms..look at the way he responds..Some sophism..and then 'if you now are admitting that you're wrong..then good' this is in the very end..

Schopenhauer?: Philosophy Forums

[MacGuffin]

This thread seems mostly aimed at INTJs (I voted that way too), because I have not seen this behavior from INFJs. Or perhaps they hide it better.

[SolitaryWalker]

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

This thread seems mostly aimed at INTJs (I voted that way too), because I have not seen this behavior from INFJs. Or perhaps they hide it better.

INFJs have this trait towards their personal values and can come off as terribly self-righteous people for that reason.

[MacGuffin]

Originally Posted by BlueWing

INFJs have this trait towards their personal values and can come off as terribly self-righteous people for that reason.

They (seem) far more willing to understand another's point of view. Even if they don't agree with it.

[SolitaryWalker]

When it comes to ideas yes (Ni-Ti), though when their character is in question--not so much..they wouldnt be any more willing to understand how the other person feels than the INTJ would about ideas..I am thinking that the Fe is as analogous to the INFJ as the Te to the INTJ.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by BlueWing

Tell me about it..

Watch Cyberflauner in this thread..at least look at posts 25 and 30...30 especially..



The Relationship between Language and Culture: Philosophy Forums

and in this thread..after I thoroughly answered all of his hostile criticisms..look at the way he responds..Some sophism..and then 'if you now are admitting that you're wrong..then good' this is in the very end..

Schopenhauer?: Philosophy Forums

How do you know that he's an INTJ?

[Economica]

Originally Posted by toonia

So what exactly is Ni then? I often hear it explained as being able to view a scenario from multiple perspectives. That would seem to be the opposite of what you describe here, and yet it is the primary function of both INTJs and INFJs. I am getting so confused.

I don't blame you. I'm fuzzy on the functions too. But clear definitions are for the INTPs to work out, right? J/K.

The following descriptions of Ni from the Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki really resonate with me:

Introverted Intuitions are not really ideas. They're like trains at the edge of articulated knowledge. You can't claim them or advocate them. You put on a hat, grab hold of a boxcar door, and see where they go.

Ni is a way of knowing (or at least thinking you know) that bypasses reason, facts, evidence, the expected or intended interpretations of signs, or anything you can point to, simply giving you an awareness or belief that seems indisputably true to you, period. You can't tell by introspection how you got this idea. There is no thought process. There is only tuning into this form of awareness and just knowing.

I'm personally coming to terms with my half-brilliant half-retarded Ni by distancing myself from the insights ("trains") I get. My friend Blackwater has suggested that when I get an inspirational insight, then instead of claiming it as My Truth, I should renounce ownership of it and just put it out there for us both to examine. That way, if the insight turns out to be one of the off-base ones, I don't lose face when the flaws sooner or later become apparent (and if it was brilliant, I still get credit ).

I also have no way to answer the original poll. The potential for irony is dizzying. I do find myself exploring a somewhat devil's advocate position in relationship to whomever I am discussing to be certain all sides are viewed. My entire mind is also in a deep state of flux in which there is virtually nothing I am certain of. I wrestle to approach politics, religion, philosophy, etc. because I view most sides simultaneously. It's very difficult to reach a decision unless it is in something in which I have been viewing every side for a long time, then when opportunity arises, I settle on the best plan, shut my eyes, and leap. I actually wish I could have more certainty. I'm getting rather tired of this endless expanse of grey. But am I certain of not being certain?

FWIW, toonia, I'll buy that you don't really suffer from CC. I know I've mentally filed you under the heading of "mature poster". (However, this has been known to happen to people simply for agreeing with me so it might not be worth that much. )

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Also, I would only accept a post where I claimed, in no uncertain terms, that I think that I'm always right to refute my claim that I don't think that I'm always right.

Jen, I eat my words. Apparently his pulse did go up.

Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser

I haven't voted because I don't view INTJ's as having close minded certitude. I would describe them as having open minded certitude. INTJ's are very willing to listen to another's viewpoint and to receive correction. It's just that they seem deceptively sure about their all of their ideas regardless of what they are.

I have a similar experience with an INTJ friend of mine. Whenever you point out a flaw in his argument he retorts, "That's what I'm saying!" He says that even if it's obviously the exact opposite of what he's been saying.

This is what Langrenus described and what I call the keeping-up-appearances variant of CC (see post #17). If it doesn't annoy you (or if the other INTJs you know don't do this), then I suggest you vote for the "not really a problem area for INTJs" option (or the <50% option).

Originally Posted by BlueWing

Tell me about it..

Watch Cyberflauner in this thread..at least look at posts 25 and 30...30 especially..

He's an INTJ all right. I wish I could wrap my mind around the content of your dispute, though, so I could judge for myself just how wrong he is.

I only skimmed the threads, but it occurred to me that what I would have done in your place is to pick the single worst contradiction you thought he made and then put it on display with devastating clarity. If you give an INXJ (/INTJ) with CC and on the defensive anything with which to distort or distract the discussion from the beef you have with them, then they'll never concede their error (or retreat, which on an internet board is good enough).

Originally Posted by MacGuffin

They (seem) far more willing to understand another's point of view. Even if they don't agree with it.

INFJs are much more diplomatic about it, but I believe they can still suffer from closed-minded certitude - i.e. they'll think they're right, but they won't insist on it if doing so runs contrary to making nice. At least with an INTJ you know where you stand.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Mycroft

Also, I would only accept a post where I claimed, in no uncertain terms, that I think that I'm always right to refute my claim that I don't think that I'm always right.

Originally Posted by Economica

Jen, I eat my words. Apparently his pulse did go up.

omg I had to read that sentence three times before I could even understand what Mycroft was saying... (He truly has a dizzying intellect.)

I don't want to keep poking him and seeing him mirror that scene of Ash (in "Alien") spinning around and puking white bile everywhere right before his head pops off.

Originally Posted by Economica

INFJs are much more diplomatic about it, but I believe they can still suffer from closed-minded certitude - i.e. they'll think they're right, but they won't insist on it if doing so runs contrary to making nice. At least with an INTJ you know where you stand.

True. INFJs tend to be extremely discrete. They might have the same internal reaction, but are usually very concerned about playing nice and acting in a relationally appropriate way, so as not to hurt anyone unnecessarily. Inside though, they will still have the same sharp opinions and sometimes stress because they don't allow themselves to release it. INTJs focus on the ideas and assume the other person will just have to deal... if they see it as worth their while to engage at all, in terms of it interfering in their own plans.