ENTJ or ENFJ?

[substitute]

Originally Posted by hotmale

I think perhaps you are confused with how an INTJ will act with an ENTJ. ENTJs make great mediators, in my opinion. They will solve the dispute in a practical, fair way- with both sides agreeing to the result, while an ENFJ will make sure everyone is emotionally happy.

ENFJs- likes talking about feelings
ENTJs- do only when everything else is resolved
INTJs- goes around telling everyone to STFU, heh

THat's kinda what I meant, but you put it better than me. What I mean is that the ENTJ considers the problem solved when an agreement has been reached, but doesn't consider everyone being emotionally happy and best buddies as necessary for him to consider the problem solved. He also wouldn't expect that people would be emotionally happy, just because they've reached an agreement. I tend to find ENFJ's can be quite naive in this area, and sometimes a little overconfident in their people skills, thinking they can go in, smile sweetly, calm everyone down and make them apologise and reach an agreement, and then they're shocked when the same people are arguing again a couple of days later - they thought it was all solved, which in their book means everyone's emotionally happy.

[hotmale]

Originally Posted by substitute

THat's kinda what I meant, but you put it better than me. What I mean is that the ENTJ considers the problem solved when an agreement has been reached, but doesn't consider everyone being emotionally happy and best buddies as necessary for him to consider the problem solved. He also wouldn't expect that people would be emotionally happy, just because they've reached an agreement. I tend to find ENFJ's can be quite naive in this area, and sometimes a little overconfident in their people skills, thinking they can go in, smile sweetly, calm everyone down and make them apologise and reach an agreement, and then they're shocked when the same people are arguing again a couple of days later - they thought it was all solved, which in their book means everyone's emotionally happy.

ENFJs can be drama queens. If their emotional needs aren't met, then they will raise hell, use emotional bribery tactics and create unnecessary trouble.

ENTJs on the other hand- are practically minded people. They want the solution that works. They don't need to be there to listen to someone for 6 hours going on and on about the same thing. Their emotional energies are saved for people they trust and don't want to impose their dramas on other people.

Both like connecting with people however. If I had to choose which type I prefer to be a mediator or judge, definitely the ENTJs. ENFJs are often too self-interested to make good judges and blind to their own biases.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by hotmale

If I had to choose which type I prefer to be a mediator or judge, definitely the ENTJs. ENFJs are often too self-interested to make good judges and blind to their own biases.

The only problem with that solution is that ENTJs are even more blind towards their bias as they are "logical people" and therefore lack bias. Okay with ENFJs they tend to be aware of their bias and in denial about it but that's one step closer, IME, than someone clinging to the vain hope that they alone are the rock of logical thinking in the sea and quagmires of sheep.

See I've been able to study both types next to each other and I'd have to say that for a judge I wouldn't pick either as neither can maintain detachment when their lines are crossed and both are swines when they get wound up. For mediators, personally I'd choose ENTJ but that's more my own preference of a T approach to things.

[proteanmix]

Originally Posted by Xander

The only problem with that solution is that ENTJs are even more blind towards their bias as they are "logical people" and therefore lack bias. Okay with ENFJs they tend to be aware of their bias and in denial about it but that's one step closer, IME, than someone clinging to the vain hope that they alone are the rock of logical thinking in the sea and quagmires of sheep.

See I've been able to study both types next to each other and I'd have to say that for a judge I wouldn't pick either as neither can maintain detachment when their lines are crossed and both are swines when they get wound up. For mediators, personally I'd choose ENTJ but that's more my own preference of a T approach to things.

Are you saying that ENJs are less able to be unbiased than other types? Considering that Te and Fe are probably the most objective functions that's hardly the case. Can you say which types can maintain detachment when their lines are crossed?

[Xander]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Are you saying that ENJs are less able to be unbiased than other types? Considering that Te and Fe are probably the most objective functions that's hardly the case. Can you say which types can maintain detachment when their lines are crossed?

Going on an assumption of what lines it is that you are referring to then I'd have to say that the answer doesn't lie in the MBTI to be honest.

Oh and ENFJs and ENTJs are just as likely to deceive themselves as anyone else. This whole "objectivity" is just another layer of deception behind which to hide. Oh and who the hell said ENFJs are objective? That'd be a bit of a stretch of definition to my mind!!

[proteanmix]

Originally Posted by Xander

Going on an assumption of what lines it is that you are referring to then I'd have to say that the answer doesn't lie in the MBTI to be honest.

Oh and ENFJs and ENTJs are just as likely to deceive themselves as anyone else. This whole "objectivity" is just another layer of deception behind which to hide. Oh and who the hell said ENFJs are objective? That'd be a bit of a stretch of definition to my mind!!

I'm not saying that ENJs are exempt from self-deception, it just sounded like you were saying that they're more prone to self-deception than other types which I disagreed with. Maybe I misunderstood.

And I don't know about the ENFJs you know, but I'm very aware of things being equal and fair between people and try to make things as level as possible.

Originally Posted by substitute

And where the ENFJ expects that once they've mediated a 'peace' between two people, that their animosity is solved and over, the ENTJ would tend to expect that the peace was superficial and that another argument was sure to arise before long. ENFJ would put those people together to encourage them to get along (actually thinking this will work), whilst ENTJ would keep them separated if possible.

I don't know how much experience your ENFJ friends have with conflict resolution, but putting people that are fighting like bitter enemies back together is tempting fate. Once they've made their tenuous peace, I wouldn't encourage any contact unless the parties involved said they wanted to try to make the peace more than superficial. I guess this depends on how much exposure the ENFJ has had involving managing people and what the realistic outcomes of situations like that are. I most certainly wouldn't want to be "encouraged" to be in close proximity with someone I didn't like so I figure others wouldn't either.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

I'm not saying that ENJs are exempt from self-deception, it just sounded like you were saying that they're more prone to self-deception than other types which I disagreed with. Maybe I misunderstood.

And I don't know about the ENFJs you know, but I'm very aware of things being equal and fair between people and try to make things as level as possible.

I grew up with 3 Js in the family. I do think Js are more likely to decieve themselves but that's only a remnant from the old fight of
"you can't make up your mind so you lose"
versus
"yeah well you DID make up your mind and got it WRONG so OBVIOUSLY you should have thought more before you did it"

I'm fully aware that Ps can and do deceive themselves but somehow that seems a more agreeable form than the J one. You could say that I'm biased but that'd just be you making your mind up too soon and getting it all wrong

[proteanmix]

Originally Posted by Xander

I grew up with 3 Js in the family. I do think Js are more likely to decieve themselves but that's only a remnant from the old fight of
"you can't make up your mind so you lose"
versus
"yeah well you DID make up your mind and got it WRONG so OBVIOUSLY you should have thought more before you did it"

I'm fully aware that Ps can and do deceive themselves but somehow that seems a more agreeable form than the J one. You could say that I'm biased but that'd just be you making your mind up too soon and getting it all wrong

Damned if I do, damned if I don't!

Since I'm damned either way I might as well say it. I think you're very right, you prefer the P way of disagreeableness. I prefer the J way of disagreeableness. Although I really don't prefer any type of disagreeableness.

My boss is an INFP and she WILL NOT give me deadlines or let me know when I need to have something to her. Even when I ask for explicit dates, she says "well whenever you get it to me." I don't know how to prioritize and yet I feel this force emanating from her that she really does want things from me within some type of time frame she's set in her own mind but not communicating to me. So then everything becomes priority and it's stressful. But maybe that's OK with you so I can see how you'd prefer that.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Damned if I do, damned if I don't!

Elementary my dear Proteanmix

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Since I'm damned either way I might as well say it. I think you're very right, you prefer the P way of disagreeableness. I prefer the J way of disagreeableness. Although I really don't prefer any type of disagreeableness.

You could have been on Yes Prime Minister with those lines

Originally Posted by proteanmix

My boss is an INFP and she WILL NOT give me deadlines or let me know when I need to have something to her. Even when I ask for explicit dates, she says "well whenever you get it to me." I don't know how to prioritize and yet I feel this force emanating from her that she really does want things from me within some type of time frame she's set in her own mind but not communicating to me. So then everything becomes priority and it's stressful. But maybe that's OK with you so I can see how you'd prefer that.

You tried suggesting a priority list and seeing how she responds? I'd have thought that an INFP under pressure would give you all kinds of trouble Underlying ESTJ an all

Look at it this way, if there's no prioritising then you can't be blamed if things don't get done in the right order.