ENTJ or ENFJ?

[Xander]

Originally Posted by htb

Essentially, what differentiates an ENTJ from any other type (except perhaps, without closer examination, the ESTJ): an overbearing manner in which calculated aggression is used to overwhelm any opposition or impediment to a set objective when and if assertive persuasion has been unsuccessful. ENTJs are inclined to settling comprehensive policy without consultation, and will systematically eliminate dissent.

This sounds totally not like my father.. kinda makes me wonder how non typical he really is.

I'm going to go research the atypical version of the ENTJ. I think my father sets a bad example.. or rather a good one.. you know what I mean.

Thanks htb.

[htb]

Originally Posted by Xander

This sounds totally not like my father.. kinda makes me wonder how non typical he really is.

It comes with the territory. My own father self-tests as an ESTJ but is clearly a feeling type. Although ESFJ would be the most suitable for him, he dislikes certain types of closure and, when I was a child, rarely intruded on my business. So -- I continue to guess.

[Xander]

Hmm after looking the difference can be summed up in one word, efficiency.

It seems that atypical (and even my own examples, now it has been highlighted) ENTJs share some of the INTJ preference for efficiency. Though they make team plans and lead groups (as opposed to the INTJ leading no one but their indomitable selves ) their plans are based in efficient results and not in keeping moral high as in ENFJs.

Thanks guys. Now I know Mike is definately ENFJ and not ENTJ.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by htb

It comes with the territory. My own father self-tests as an ESTJ but is clearly a feeling type. Although ESFJ would be the most suitable for him, he dislikes certain types of closure and, when I was a child, rarely intruded on my business. So -- I continue to guess.

I thought that most Fs tend to not intrude on an INTJ more than once

[htb]

Originally Posted by Xander

I thought that most Fs tend to not intrude on an INTJ more than once

Tell that to my dear mother who, miles away, is still practiced in the art of suggestion!

[Xander]

Originally Posted by htb

Tell that to my dear mother who, miles away, is still practiced in the art of suggestion!

I never said they'd pass your definition of being left alone!!

[Lookin4theBestNU]

I spent a great deal of time with an ENTJ. I disagree that the two couldn't be confused. I think gender makes it more difficult. We had many colleagues tell us we were 'just alike'. He knew nothing about MBTI but would comment on how I reminded him of himself. He told me when we first met he singled me out for that reason lol. I don't know about other ENFJs but efficiency is always a high priority. The differences I noticed between us was however in the 'style' of getting things done. The ENTJ was an "you will do it this way" kind of person. I took more of a route of explaining why it should be done this way. People would generally respond better to my approach and with more enthusiasm then his way. I liked building consensus. Enthusiasm is in itself another good way to tell us apart. He honestly had a bit of a 'silly switch' too but it took more to draw it out making it appear forced.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU

I spent a great deal of time with an ENTJ. I disagree that the two couldn't be confused. I think gender makes it more difficult. We had many colleagues tell us we were 'just alike'. He knew nothing about MBTI but would comment on how I reminded him of himself. He told me when we first met he singled me out for that reason lol. I don't know about other ENFJs but efficiency is always a high priority. The differences I noticed between us was however in the 'style' of getting things done. The ENTJ was an "you will do it this way" kind of person. I took more of a route of explaining why it should be done this way. People would generally respond better to my approach and with more enthusiasm then his way. I liked building consensus. Enthusiasm is in itself another good way to tell us apart. He honestly had a bit of a 'silly switch' too but it took more to draw it out making it appear forced.

You should meet my sister. The word "dictatorial" was used once in reference to her and she stated emphatically and to the persons face (probably only about 0.025" away from it to) that she was in no way dictatorial. The common response to one of these statements is "Yes Ma'am!"

My sister is negative feedback, my father is positive feedback like me. My father is a mellowed ENTJ who would explain it all too you. My sister, until recently, would explain it to you if it didn't matter too much but if it did then you would obey or die, full stop.

I do see the similarities though I didn't think an ENFJ would be so cold as to be overly concerned with efficiency. Efficiency I see as gravitating towards "the ends justify the means" and I've yet to see that facet in an ENFJ except under duress.

Oh and as for ENFJs and ENTJs my sister and my father compensate for each other perfectly. One balances the other. She interprets his speeches and he often hold her leash when she tries to pull the jugular out of an unsuspecting and sometimes innocent victim.

[Lookin4theBestNU]

Originally Posted by Xander

Efficiency I see as gravitating towards "the ends justify the means" and I've yet to see that facet in an ENFJ except under duress.

I see this as utilitarianism/cooperation in goals, not efficiency alone. I happen to find it more efficient to get people 'on my team' then try to be a dictator. I could succeed where others failed because people would want to do what I wanted if that makes sense.

She interprets his speeches and he often hold her leash when she tries to pull the jugular out of an unsuspecting and sometimes innocent victim.

Haha!! This is funny because when things would not go how the ENTJ said it would he would send out 'hate mails'. The managers I got along with would call me to interpret . He in turn would try and show me how to look objectively at situations that got under my skin.

Oh and as for ENFJs and ENTJs my sister and my father compensate for each other perfectly. One balances the other.

I ended up working in the home office store for over a year in close proximity. We did balance each other out quite a bit. We would ask for the others opinion/view on things. We had an F/T clash in many areas however got along quite well.

[proteanmix]

Originally Posted by Dark Razor

I am not sure I know any ENFJs, but the difference should be rather easily visible, as the ENFJ has Fe, as their primary function, and the ENTJ has Fi, as their last function. So the ENFJ should be very people focused and care very much about personal relationships, generaly they should be very warm people , like ESFJs are too.

ENTJs should be much less focused on people, much colder and reserved and also extremely straighforward and blunt, generally not concerned with how what they say will effect others emotionally. An ENTJ is likely to speak out even when he has the whole group against him, trying to make his point and not holding back because maybe someone could be offended. At first glance they may resemble an ESTJ, or an INTJ, but probably not an ENFJ.

Though an ENTJ of course also shows feelings to others, but it is likely that he will act rather ackward, as it is his last function.

Though that is all just my personal speculation, as I dont know any ENFJs personally and I am not even completely sure wether I'm ENTJ or INTJ.

Edit: I would think that an ENTJ who has been hurt would probably not open up more to people, he would likely think that he needs to be "strong" and "hard" and not show any weakness to other people, generally become more unapproachable and distant.

You could also mistake an ENTJ for an introvert maybe, becaue he will often be misunderstood, and people usually react badly to his forceful presence, so it is possible that the ENTJ will tone down his personality to better fit into social settings.

I can not say how an ENFJ would react, maybe one of the ENFJs on this board can shed some light on that.

I disagree, unless you're talking about the stereotypical ENFJ and ENTJ. I think the closest type an ENFJ resembles is ENTJ. Fe isn't all about connecting, it's also about categorizing just like Te. Lenore Thomson's wiki describes Fe as

Extraverted Feeling is conceptual and analytic. It encourages us to make rational choices, to measure our options for relationship against an external standard of behaviors. What distinguishes this function from Extraverted Thinking is the fact that relatedness involves human beings, not impersonal abstractions.

I used to wonder if I was ENTJ, because I did (and do) more of that above and less relating and empathizing with other people. When ENFJs act like this they can look T.

Also (this mentioned in the wiki), when Fe disagrees with social roles and cues and rebels against them, this can also look T. I think this type of nonacceptance of social roles is more FeNi than FeSi because an ENFJ will probably go along with the roles he or she is asked to play if they see a greater goal. It's kinda like conditioning, the ENFJ does it for a while and then stops after their goal is accomplished., which makes us appear less warm.

I guess I always think about the ENFJ life coach that tends to give a little tough love to get people where they need to be. If you encounter the conflict avoidant ENFJ that just smiles to make everyone happy then yes, ENJs don't resemble each other at all. Personally I identify with a lot of what you said above because I usually begin to make statements and voice my opinion, but I often make a less stronger statement because I start thinking about how what I say will be received or how I should present what I say to make it more palatable.

Basically I think ENTJs and ENFJs begin have the same starting point with how they view things but they just go about it in different ways. Te probably makes ENTJs more vocal, but I often think the same things, I just don't always say it because of Fe. I hope this makes sense.