Can Es be quiet? Can Js be messy? Questions of broad MBTI descriptions.

[Mort Belfry]

When you start learning about any topic, sometimes it's easier to search for stereotypes and easy labels on the subject first, then over time layer the foundation with detail while chipping off the misconceptions.

When I first heard about MBTI, less than nine months ago, I started by associating J types as tidy and P types as messy, just as a way of beginning an understanding. And though I've always known what an Introvert is, as I always knew I was one, I neglected to detail Extraverts beyond featureless adjectives like, loud.

But now I'm at that healthy age when a boy starts asking questions. I want to know now, how broadly these terms can be taken, as I find people I want to type as Extraverts who can spend large parts of the day in silence and people I want to type as Judgment-Extraverters (if that's a term) who can keep their flats in disgusting disarray. I especially want to know from INTJs about this one.

Also I'd like to know if TJs are more likely than FJs to keep an area in order, just to see if the tidy J myth isn't just about Te.

Discussion on any other MBTI stereotypes is also welcome.

[Eric B]

I would say the J is more about an attitude of order and need for closure, that in many people will naturally play out in being neat and tidy. But with some it won't, yet that same attitude will be focused in other areas of their life. A close friend of ours is probably ISTJ (pure Melancholic), and her house is totally messy. But she is still quite like a J in other areas.

I would think FJ's (like my wife) would tend to be neater than TJ's because of the Fe. They're thinking about other people and trying to accommodate them.

[Haphazard]

I'm an INTJ but if you looked at my room, you'd think I'm INFP because half the floor is covered in books.

The difference, yes, is some need for closure, or, rather, 'settling.' A J type is more likely to accept that they can 'settle' for something once it's good enough whereas a P type can't, which makes them appear indecisive. J types usually decide that implementation is what's important and P types usually decide that understanding is what's important. For example, if we look at a lot of science models, we have things that a J (well, more precisely, one with strong Te) can accept for all intents and purposes if it produces accurate results while a P (well, one with strong Ti) can't and really wants to learn the 'truth' of a situation.

This is why in some fields, INTJs can appear lazy. I can accept my messy room as being 'good enough' because I can still find everything (though it drives my ISFJ mother INSANE). Also, I have more important things to do than clean. Like... post on this forum?

Probably SJs are more organized than NJs, but SJs could likely be messy, too, if the systems they've created and what they've learned from previous experience didn't encourage them to be clean. I think most of the stereotype comes from that in most Western cultures cleanliness is encouraged over stys like I have in my room right now. Most of them, I think, do probably have one area of the house, be it ever so small, that's extremely neat and organized and clean because it's full of something they like where it'd be detrimental if they left everything in disarray. You can always tell the P artists from the J artists because the J artist will keep all the colors in order.

As for Extraverts... well, the difference is mostly that they prefer to interact. It takes more to stimulate an extravert than it does an introvert, and because of this, they're constantly seeking stimulation, usually from other people. If the extravert has suffered enough social trauma, they're likely to keep their mouths shut for a very long time. Also, if they realize that it would be better for them to shut up in a situation, they can usually manage. But the difference is, when given a choice, they prefer to speak. Because most introverts prefer to sit and listen and think in a conversation than speak, they, many times, end up in relationships with extraverts.

So, I hope that helped. ^_^

[Nocap]

Yes. They can.

End of discussion.

[Mort Belfry]

Thanks. (EDIT=To Haphazard, not Nocapszy)

I ask because there's a couple of people I'm trying to type. One guy seems to have dominant Ne and Ti, but I'm always wondering whether he is an ENTP or INTP. He works near me and we often do Ne type things like sending a story back and forth by email that we add paragraphs onto and making robots and characters out odd bits and ends that he keeps in what he calls an "Arts and Crafts box." He also has a much more active life outside of work than I have, but then that doesn't necessarily take an extravert.

I have no reason to believe he's suffered any serious emotional trauma and he seems a content person. But he can be quiet for large portions of the day and might only converse to three or four other people. In fact I can be one of the loudest people in our department and I'm an introvert. But the fact he's always looking for something to make something out of made me think Ne over Ti, but what do you think? Do I just have another run of the mill INTP on my hands?

[YourLocalJesus]

Most people would discribe me as a man of few words, in real life. And i'm quite messy when it comes to what people regard as "messy". I have places where I put things in order to find them later, and when stuff is neat it is NOT practical. I'm above all a utility-oriented person. I don't talk about the weather, bullshit or anything else that won't accomplish something. And my order is messy But there is a system. Effective one at that, I know where all my stuff is, all the time The only person who beats me in finding stuff in my own mess is my INFJ mother ^^ But that's because she's got some kind of gut feeling-thingy that makes her "guessing" VERY scarily accurate.

[Nocap]

Originally Posted by Mort Belfry

Thanks. (EDIT=To Haphazard, not Nocapszy)

Why not? I'm right.

Oh I get it, you wanted me to substantiate my idea.

Well... we already have other threads for that.

[Haphazard]

Originally Posted by Mort Belfry

Thanks. (EDIT=To Haphazard, not Nocapszy)

I ask because there's a couple of people I'm trying to type. One guy seems to have dominant Ne and Ti, but I'm always wondering whether he is an ENTP or INTP. He works near me and we often do Ne type things like sending a story back and forth by email that we add paragraphs onto and making robots and characters out odd bits and ends that he keeps in what he calls an "Arts and Crafts box." He also has a much more active life outside of work than I have, but then that doesn't necessarily take an extravert.

I have no reason to believe he's suffered any serious emotional trauma and he seems a content person. But he can be quiet for large portions of the day and might only converse to three or four other people. In fact I can be one of the loudest people in our department and I'm an introvert. But the fact he's always looking for something to make something out of made me think Ne over Ti, but what do you think? Do I just have another run of the mill INTP on my hands?

I didn't necessarily mean serious emotional trauma. What I mean is more that as children, ENTPs and ENTJs tend to get 'shut up and shut down' by their peers because the NT form of thinking is so foreign to them. INTPs tend to have the 'maybe I'm missing something!' open-ended mentality that comes with being INTP, and that just leaves INTJs. This is probably why INTJs are usually considered 'strangely confident' compared to the rest of the NTs. They don't rely on people so much for their confidence so as kids they don't care about gettin picked on as much, and don't have that uncertainty of INTPs.

How good is he at leading people? How many people can he talk to at a time? Does he usually blurt out things, or does he have a stop-and-start manner of speech (that I've noticed in most INTs)? ENTPs are master bullshitters and don't lead by command, but they usually acquire a lot of followers if they can find enough people to appreciate their NT-ness. INTPs may be nice to have around, but they don't usually do this.

[Electric]

J = construction
They focus their time on building stuff thus they are practical. More towards inductive reasoning.
P = destruction
They focus their time on cracking puzzles. More towards deductive reasoning.

And people say inductive reasoning doesn't exist. This maybe somewhat out of perspective. Inductive reasoning is a different type of deductive reasoning.

It's retarded to associate Ps with laziness or messiness. Some Js like me can be lazy and messy.

Also to associate J with order is very generalize. It completely misses the point that they bring order to construct something. Ps use order too...but to destroy things.

[nemo]

Originally Posted by Mort Belfry

Thanks. (EDIT=To Haphazard, not Nocapszy)

I ask because there's a couple of people I'm trying to type. One guy seems to have dominant Ne and Ti, but I'm always wondering whether he is an ENTP or INTP. He works near me and we often do Ne type things like sending a story back and forth by email that we add paragraphs onto and making robots and characters out odd bits and ends that he keeps in what he calls an "Arts and Crafts box." He also has a much more active life outside of work than I have, but then that doesn't necessarily take an extravert.

I have no reason to believe he's suffered any serious emotional trauma and he seems a content person. But he can be quiet for large portions of the day and might only converse to three or four other people. In fact I can be one of the loudest people in our department and I'm an introvert. But the fact he's always looking for something to make something out of made me think Ne over Ti, but what do you think? Do I just have another run of the mill INTP on my hands?

Yeah. I definitely come off as an introvert too. For sure. (Ask CC.) It's weird because all NTs are aloof, distant, and disengaged, so ENTs are sorta paradoxes, although some seem more stereotypically extroverted than others.

And Ne itself is interesting because it's primarily activated by the possibilities present in a situation, not the situation itself.

That's why ENPs can especially appear like such introverts. If a situation is ordinary and mundane, they often won't extrovert at all. On the other hand, if something new and interesting pops up, they'll bounce all over the place. And the new-and-interesting situations that activate Ne aren't necessarily social ones.

I have trouble with this too. But, well, at least my interpretation of the whole thing is this: E+N+T+P is shorthand for Ne/Ti/Fe/Si -- it's a completely different "kind" of extroversion than, say, an ENTJ possesses, even though they're only one letter off.

So it's sort of easier for me to think of the dominant "Ne's" and "Te's" etc. as self-contained types rather than just a matter of E vs. I.

In that sense, yes, E's can definitely have strong introverted tendencies if their "conditions" for extroverting aren't met; and J's can likewise be messy if they think being any more organized is inefficient or whatnot (Hap said it all in her post).