Cultural Differences and TYPE

[proteanmix]

With Dana's permission, I'm posting a PM conversation we had:

Originally Posted by Dana

Go ahead!

I personally believe that black/Latino intuitives seem more sensate compared to white intuitives due to historical reasons and present realities. I also notice that black introverts aren't as stereotypically introverted as white introverts. I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex. But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of it, but it doesn't seem reflective of what I encounter on daily basis.

What do people think?

[pure_mercury]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

With Dana's permission, I'm posting a PM conversation we had:



I personally believe that black/Latino intuitives seem more sensate compared to white intuitives due to historical reasons and present realities. I also notice that black introverts aren't as stereotypically introverted as white introverts. I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex. But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type. I'm not entirely sure of the mechanics of it, but it doesn't seem reflective of what I encounter on daily basis.

What do people think?

I wonder if my Irish and Italian heritage would have anything to do with my extroversion, or my feeling?

[Silently Honest]

Are you asking if we think that people are taught to fit in a mold that the culture expects them to?

I don't know. Maybe I'm projecting my own expierences with this onto your question, but yeah sadly I do believe that a your certain cultures do expect you to act a certain type. I also believe that if you are a certain type you wouldn't be able to fake being a certian type for long no matter who it was for. You are who you are.

Most black people are ISTJ?

I'm a black, male, INFJ, I'm almost the complete opposite of what I'm expected to be.

[Seanan]

Originally Posted by pure_mercury

I wonder if my Irish and Italian heritage would have anything to do with my extroversion, or my feeling?

I'm first generation born in with USA with Irish heritage. They're known for being fairly outspoken and calling "a spade, a spade" and I do think my cultural environment growing up has affected me in that regard.

[Wandering]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

I have an article from CAPT that breaks the American population MBTI type down by race and gender. Black people were overwhelmingly ISTJ regardless of sex.

I wonder: were those Black people tested by white people, or other Black people? I get a feeling the results would be vastly different depending on the colour of the testers.

But I don't believe that's true type, I think that it's a learned cultural type.

Very possible.

***

Oh, and

ENFJs sound like gods.

made me laugh. I live with one: wonderful human being, but not a god. He would freak out big time if someone thought of him as a god

[Uberfuhrer]

I don't 100 percent know where you're getting at here, but yes, there is definitely cultural bias with the MBTI just like any other form of psychometrics -- IQ testing for example. Particularly troubling for me is how there is a literal vs. figurative dichotomy in the MBTI. I think too many people emphasize the sociological definition of "literal" instead of the more psychological definition. For example, an American says "You're biting my head off" as a way of saying "overreacting." Now I suspect that a person unfamiliar with American or English-language euphemisms would take that phrase literally due to misunderstandings.

I think the definition of "literal" vs. "figurative" should be worded in a more psychological way. In interpreting the euphemisms of different cultures, chances are that, yes, I'm going to take it literal. However, from a more internal psychological point of view, I tend to be more figurative about the world as a whole. For example, when I look at something, I prefer to take it figuratively in that I prefer looking at how it will stimulate my mind and imagine all sorts of possibilities based upon what I observe. I prefer doing this to seeing the object for what it is. I focus more on what it means, but in the subjective context...what it means to me and what imaginary possibilities the object could suggest unrelated to the external world. I don't take the world literally. I think when the question is worded "Are you inclined to take someone's words literally or figuratively?", I feel that it's such a narrow definition of literal. And so I think it should be a more universal definition of literal.

[whatever]

I come from a culture traditionally described as "white trash" This culture is quite different from the mainstream white culture.

I think I complained in my blog once that this is a culture where, if you don't do something with your hands and see what is around you for just that, you are considered lazy and a bit off- my ability to schmooze and convince people of things is even looked askance at because it's not MAKING something- it's considered dishonest work

To get out of my background culture as an N would probably be nearly impossible

[cafe]

Originally Posted by whatever

I come from a culture traditionally described as "white trash" This culture is quite different from the mainstream white culture.

I think I complained in my blog once that this is a culture where, if you don't do something with your hands and see what is around you for just that, you are considered lazy and a bit off- my ability to schmooze and convince people of things is even looked askance at because it's not MAKING something- it's considered dishonest work

To get out of my background culture as an N would probably be nearly impossible

The bolded is so true! My husband has a brilliant mind and has always been hardworking, doing his best to provide for us while he was in college, and later, seminary and my family had not one ounce of respect for him until he became *drum roll* a truck driver. Unbelievable.


(sorry if this is off-topic)

[Uberfuhrer]

Okay, I read the first post again. It seems there was a few things I just misunderstood. Even though I am white, I don't think I've ever been perceived as an introvert in a typical white American social group. In fact, my behavior in front of other people is quite animated and I am able be wild and goofy in contrast of the typical stereotype of a serious INTJ.

I also wouldn't be perceived as hardworking in the way American culture defines it, and what most people associate with a J. Hell, my physical surroundings are, for the most part, not even organized or in any kind of order and much of my lifestyle is physically untidy, in general. However, cognitively, I am a J much more than a P. I want my lifestyle to be predictable and controlled. I don't like unsuspected surprises. In addition, I can be extremely ambitious when there is something that interests me. But I'm just not interested in "American dream" types of things, so to the American culture, I am not hardworking and would likely be perceived as a slacker.

Usually, when I take an MBTI, I mentally think of the questions as if they are being asked from a more universal and less ethnocentric perspective.

[substitute]

Originally Posted by Seanan

I'm first generation born in with USA with Irish heritage. They're known for being fairly outspoken and calling "a spade, a spade" and I do think my cultural environment growing up has affected me in that regard.

I don't know... I'm skeptical... I mean, you get national and cultural stereotypes but they seldom hold true in reality. I've been to Ireland, France, Italy, Africa, Asia... and pretty much everywhere it's the same. There are flighty people, there are academics, stuffy dry people and spontaneous social people, the whole range of personalities exists in every single country on earth... I think the only thing that changes is the generally accepted modes of manifesting certain mentalities and traits, the communication methods and standards.

What I mean is that whilst doing Thing A in one country might have you perceived as one thing, it might have you perceived as an entirely different thing in another country. So people with the same mentalities and personal takes on the world might present it differently, depending on the 'audience' they've been trained to present to.

I think the reason many people might find the whole theory of MBTI a crock of shit is because it's all presented from a very particular point of view - the home culture of its authors which happens to be sorta middle majority white America. It doesn't necessarily mean that the theory doesn't hold true for other cultures, it just means that new profiles are needed that take these differences into account and offer/allow for different ways of displaying the same qualities.