ESTJ - Collected Wisdom

[Xander]

Okay it looks like I have possibly two or three of these to work with now and Lori seems to have a "minion" now who is an ESTJ. As such I have been trying to study them in more depth and gauge them more fairly. Sure there is the whole stereotype of the dumb jock/ sergeant type who thinks they know best about everything but I'm remaining positive and looking for how I and others who aren't of the select "approved" kinds of people can key into the psyche of the typical ESTJ and actually gain some acceptance or even comradeship.

Anyhow I'll put up the kinds of things which I've observed, feel free to correct, advise or add on as you feel necessary. I claim no mastery of this subject and I'm going on just what I've observed, figured out and heard.

I should also note that two out of my "test" subjects are rugby players and the third is an ex martial arts tutor and is now quite old (as in high 60s, I think). All are engineers and hence know everything (I think that's more part of the engineer breed than anything inherent with ESTJs)
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It could be the sports bent of the test subject but these ESTJs seem to respond only to blunt force trauma. Subtleties are treated as a waste of time and often seem to irritate more than placate.
The sense of humour and style of address is often aggressive and there seems to be a deep seated need to establish a pecking order and not to let others gain more than they think is their "fair" share.

One thing which does seem constant is an intolerance of difference. Things which are new or deviate from what they have laid down in their head as right are targeted for attack. I have witnessed a propensity for discriminatory behaviour based on anything from race/ sex to what village the person grew up in. It seems that they have no limit on to the number of subdivisions which they can divide people into and attack based on that division's stereotypes.

Style seems oddly more important to them than I, for one, expected. The results must not just be attained but attained in a manner to which they approve or the whole thing is targeted as under their dislike of new or change.

Possessions seem rarely to truly matter for anything further than their current purpose and yet they take hours in discussing choices and possibilities. I don't know why they discuss it as they most often simply stick to their first assumption but I presume it's some "trial by fire" for the idea.

Stress seems to be some kind of motivator. It's almost like nothing can be created (or more commonly destroyed) without stressing about it. I have often been targeted myself for my seeming lack of care and stress as though I'd shown blasphemy in the face of their religion or something.

All in all I've witnessed very primitive male behaviour towards most things (I've yet to encounter an ESTJ female to my knowledge but I'm hoping that some of this converts over). I'm hoping it's only true of a small percentage but hope is in short supply with this lot!

Another thing which seems important now that I think about it is that these ESTJs and the stories of others seem to display an almost complete lack of flexibility especially in regards to confidence. Lori was describing how she was trying to teach this girl the administration system (which she herself had only been using for a week and yet was comfortable with it) and the girl seemed almost singularly incapable of adapting her previous knowledge and experience to this new system. It's not often that you have to explain what 'purchase order' means to a person applying for an administration role!!

Confidence seems the key to gaining some measure of accommodation in my experience. Picking up where they are not confident and getting things back on track without making a fuss or expecting them to "get down to your level to say thanks".


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Anyhow, your turn. I'm running out of cohesive thought.

[proteanmix]

So are you asking for help or just bitching about ESTJs?

[Athenian200]

Those sound like immature ESTJs. I'm sure that some of the more well-rounded one's don't act like that. Anyway, as far as the ones you described, you have my sympathy if you have to deal with people like that. They sound so unmindful, uninsightful, and almost downright aggressive. I think I have fewer problems with them than you, though, because if I disagree with them, I tend to do it in a very insistent, stressed manner. I can be as stubborn as they are if I have to be to get something done, but I don't like having to be, because it makes me feel insensitive and hateful.

Most of the time, though, they seem more than willing to work with me to do something as long as I show them how it's in their best interest. But it can take a lot of explaining. Most of the ones I know are similar to those things, but they aren't quite as aggressive. Just kind of slow and stubborn sometimes. They remind of Capricorns.

[proteanmix]

That whole post seemed to be some kind of backhanded compliment and I'm not sure what kind of "wisdom" can be collected from something like that.

The ESTJs I know do have a "prove it" aura around them, but I don't find them to be obstinate or stubborn, just make me believe it. I don't find that kind of thing intimidating. They like to argue and with one in particular it was a little offputting at first, but after a while I realized it wasn't her trying to be difficult. I wouldn't put much faith in something someone says that they are not sure of themselves so I don't blame ESTJs for this particular trait. Confidence is the key with almost anyone, not just ESTJs.

[runvardh]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

So are you asking for help or just bitching about ESTJs?

Or he's just reporting his observations of these specific ones and you're adding the emotion to it.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

So are you asking for help or just bitching about ESTJs?

Just expressing some experiences.

"help" was one of the goals but more in the sense of comparitive experiences and solutions more so than "this is how you talk to an ESTJ" cause that's just not me.

Originally Posted by athenian200

Those sound like immature ESTJs. I'm sure that some of the more well-rounded one's don't act like that. Anyway, as far as the ones you described, you have my sympathy if you have to deal with people like that. They sound so unmindful, uninsightful, and almost downright aggressive. I think I have fewer problems with them than you, though, because if I disagree with them, I tend to do it in a very insistent, stressed manner. I can be as stubborn as they are if I have to be to get something done, but I don't like having to be, because it makes me feel insensitive and hateful.

Most of the time, though, they seem more than willing to work with me to do something as long as I show them how it's in their best interest. But it can take a lot of explaining. Most of the ones I know are similar to those things, but they aren't quite as aggressive. Just kind of slow and stubborn sometimes. They remind of Capricorns.

Well one of them would be a real old adolescent if that's the cause

Don't get me wrong I've been working with them (well two of the three) for years now and I can work with them but I have to virtually nullify my N and certainly don't try to express observed patterns or such.

To put the experiences down to a concentrated form, ESTJ#1 comes up to me as I'm working on the database. This is my baby and I'm the only one capable of doing anything with it beyond operating it. I was working on some upgrades or something (irrelevant detail IMO) and he asked what I was doing. Now I don't like talking down or up to people so I told him what I was doing in terms he should be able to understand but without spoon feeding him or treating him like an idiot. His brow furrowed as he thought about it and then the response came back as "you could'a just told me you were f'kin about". I think that aptly describes the situation. Just thought that as ESTJs tend to get brushed off as some kind of king of assholes it'd be nice to go a bit more in depth. Spread the understanding.

The "insistent, stressed manner" rang bells. About the only time the most proactive of this trio will leave me be is if I take a swat at him. I'd do it more often but it's far more expressive than I am comfortable being.

I gotta wonder if there's a predatory strain in the ESTJ profile. This lot certainly act like a pack of dogs in that respect.

[spirilis]

An old coworker of mine who was very much a mentor to me was, I believe, an ESTJ, albeit not that immature although from many of his stories, he certainly exhibited some of the immature behaviors described, back in his teenage years. He was around 5 years older than me.

Confidence was paramount although he didn't directly bitch about someone else's lack of confidence; he would approach it from the "well, if you can't step up to the plate, we're not giving you the homerun" standpoint which I did admire. I am a firm believer that people need to earn their own accomplishments.

Dunno about style; he always dressed appropriately, whether it was jeans and a rock band t-shirt or dress pants and a shirt/tie. He definitely preferred the former though, but who wouldn't?

This dude would stress over damned near anything; ordinary tasks I would find simple and easy, he would obsess over the details and would continually insist that I do too, guiding me into them with statements such as "so did you check all 4 sections?", which I'd think "no, because I just did a search/replace and know it was fine..." but he would absolutely insist on double-checking. Now I am not complaining about that; laziness is no excuse for royally fucking up a crucial computer system, so that kind of detail-obsession is valuable in such scenarios. But for him it was the central focus; if someone asked him to make changes to a system that were sweeping in nature, no matter how important they are, he would freak out and push back on the request under the pretense that it would take hours to go through and verify everything. If it was absolutely necessary, then obviously he'd do it but you could tell he's stressed and unhappy the entire time. Again, not necessarily a bad thing, just not something I would stress over. When learning new systems (eg stuff purchased from 3rd party vendors), he would insistently focus on the fine details of the implementation, even the stuff that we're not required to know because the vendor's supposed to take care of it. It's just stuff that I found unnecessary to pore over unless proven necessary, at which point I knew it was just a few minutes of reading a manual or online document and I'd have it down... Oh yeah, and any form of automated system that does all the intelligence for him, he would not trust since he would automatically assume it doesn't know what it's doing.

His humor definitely exhibited an air of insensitivity, although I still found some of it funny half the time. He'd find a sick humor in jokes such as "What do you tell a woman with a black eye? Nothing; you've already told her once!"... that's the kind of joke he'd only say in private to someone he knows well. One of the funniest things he did happened while I was carpooling with him; I was dozing off a bit, and we were in city traffic moving along (~30mph or so), he reached over and slapped the dashboard hard while slamming the brakes. I woke up in a real hurry all freaked out thinking we'd just got into an accident; he started laughing. His wife said that wasn't the first time he'd done that

[Xander]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

That whole post seemed to be some kind of backhanded compliment and I'm not sure what kind of "wisdom" can be collected from something like that.

The ESTJs I know do have a "prove it" aura around them, but I don't find them to be obstinate or stubborn, just make me believe it. I don't find that kind of thing intimidating. They like to argue and with one in particular it was a little offputting at first, but after a while I realized it wasn't her trying to be difficult. I wouldn't put much faith in something someone says that they are not sure of themselves so I don't blame ESTJs for this particular trait. Confidence is the key with almost anyone, not just ESTJs.

Good point. Sometimes it does make a lot of difference, usually for the better, with a bit of bluster. Providing they don't see through it of course!!

Originally Posted by runvardh

Or he's just reporting his observations of these specific ones and you're adding the emotion to it.

Yup. No offence mean't. Just wanted to go into more depth about ESTJ interaction without being too coy and disinterested.

That's a point, I could be quite offended that someone would consider this one of MY rants!!

They're far more in decipherable and full of venom.

[Sahara]

Originally Posted by Xander

I gotta wonder if there's a predatory strain in the ESTJ profile. This lot certainly act like a pack of dogs in that respect.

I can see that actually, the ESTJ male I knew was much like that, even when it came to how he reacted when other men would as he called it "sniff around his territory"

He actually likened himself and by extension all men as predatory pack animals and saw life as a survival of the fittest no matter the cost.

[proteanmix]

Xander, it's just a little weird to me. I complain about people, individual people, I don't complain about MBTI types. I don't feel comfortable making the generalization that XXXX type does this unequivocally and some blanket statement on how to deal with "the type." Deal with the person(s). It doesn't seem much better than what you're complaining about your ESTJ coworkers doing.

Originally Posted by Xander

It seems that they have no limit on to the number of subdivisions which they can divide people into and attack based on that division's stereotypes.

Isn't this exactly what you're doing?