ESTJ - Collected Wisdom

[Xander]

Originally Posted by spirilis

An old coworker of mine who was very much a mentor to me was, I believe, an ESTJ, albeit not that immature although from many of his stories, he certainly exhibited some of the immature behaviors described, back in his teenage years. He was around 5 years older than me.

Bet you learned lots. Still got the bruises?

Originally Posted by spirilis

Confidence was paramount although he didn't directly bitch about someone else's lack of confidence; he would approach it from the "well, if you can't step up to the plate, we're not giving you the homerun" standpoint which I did admire. I am a firm believer that people need to earn their own accomplishments.

Oh that part would be fine. The problem I have with this lot is that they've overstepped that mark and tend to see any confidence in others as undeserved and any success as a fluke. I think they have deeper issues but it certainly shows where such lines of thinking can end up.

Originally Posted by spirilis

Dunno about style; he always dressed appropriately, whether it was jeans and a rock band t-shirt or dress pants and a shirt/tie. He definitely preferred the former though, but who wouldn't?

Ah but did the jeans have to be of one of the most accepted makes and the band be a mainstream or somehow accepted alternative?

Originally Posted by spirilis

This dude would stress over damned near anything; ordinary tasks I would find simple and easy, he would obsess over the details and would continually insist that I do too, guiding me into them with statements such as "so did you check all 4 sections?", which I'd think "no, because I just did a search/replace and know it was fine..." but he would absolutely insist on double-checking. Now I am not complaining about that; laziness is no excuse for royally fucking up a crucial computer system, so that kind of detail-obsession is valuable in such scenarios. But for him it was the central focus; if someone asked him to make changes to a system that were sweeping in nature, no matter how important they are, he would freak out and push back on the request under the pretense that it would take hours to go through and verify everything. If it was absolutely necessary, then obviously he'd do it but you could tell he's stressed and unhappy the entire time. Again, not necessarily a bad thing, just not something I would stress over. When learning new systems (eg stuff purchased from 3rd party vendors), he would insistently focus on the fine details of the implementation, even the stuff that we're not required to know because the vendor's supposed to take care of it. It's just stuff that I found unnecessary to pore over unless proven necessary, at which point I knew it was just a few minutes of reading a manual or online document and I'd have it down... Oh yeah, and any form of automated system that does all the intelligence for him, he would not trust since he would automatically assume it doesn't know what it's doing.

The stressing is a pain when you can't escape it or when they somehow reach the opinion that you'd do better if they stressed you a bit more. Very sergeant style.

Mind you though when you need someone to offload a critical detail job to and they're in the mood then they're great.

Originally Posted by spirilis

His humor definitely exhibited an air of insensitivity, although I still found some of it funny half the time. He'd find a sick humor in jokes such as "What do you tell a woman with a black eye? Nothing; you've already told her once!"... that's the kind of joke he'd only say in private to someone he knows well. One of the funniest things he did happened while I was carpooling with him; I was dozing off a bit, and we were in city traffic moving along (~30mph or so), he reached over and slapped the dashboard hard while slamming the brakes. I woke up in a real hurry all freaked out thinking we'd just got into an accident; he started laughing. His wife said that wasn't the first time he'd done that

Okay I like this guy already!

Btw that's tame compared to this lot!! Let's just say the most common word in our office begins with F and has four letters. It's used to start, end and join sentences. It's practically a punctuation mark!! Oh and the other point would be that if I didn't have a good capability to control my emotions I'd be out of a job. The level of racial jokes (or other similarly targeted jokes) are enough that I recoil in absolute disgust. I figure they must have all been in the same head on crash. Shame it knocked sense out!!

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Isn't this exactly what you're doing?

I agree he's generalizing, but I don't think he's attacking them. His goal appears to be description, not judgment. Also, he doesn't continually divide and judge them in several ways, he just uses the MBTI divisions as a standard system, and sticks to it. He only typed them this towards this category based on his assessment of them. The divisions he was talking about were arbitrary facts that a person can't help. Judging a person based on their behavior is not an arbitrary measure of them. That's the difference, wouldn't you agree?

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Sahara

I can see that actually, the ESTJ male I knew was much like that, even when it came to how he reacted when other men would as he called it "sniff around his territory"

He actually likened himself and by extension all men as predatory pack animals and saw life as a survival of the fittest no matter the cost.

These lot do have that look of "mine!!" around food!

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Xander, it's just a little weird to me. I complain about people, individual people, I don't complain about MBTI types. I don't feel comfortable making the generalization that XXXX type does this unequivocally and some blanket statement on how to deal with "the type." Deal with the person(s). It doesn't seem much better than what you're complaining about your ESTJ coworkers doing.

I'm sorry but I have to work from my own experience and use that as a starting point, as I pointed out in the opening post. My aim is not to attack but merely investigate honestly. These are my honest experiences, if they are unrepresentative then I will learn that. I can do no fairer than that. To assume everyone is the Pope would be a little optimistic.

I'm sorry if my manner offends you but I am trying to be clear and transparent. If I try to compensate for my experiences not being 100% then I will move further and further away from what is my experience.

INTP here, truth is very important. Still I apologize if this approach causes you upset.

Originally Posted by proteanmix

Isn't this exactly what you're doing?

In part yes. However my aim is not to attack and bring down but to analyse and learn. If I learn that my current understanding is wrong then fine, bring on the insight.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by athenian200

I agree he's generalizing, but I don't think he's attacking them. His goal appears to be description, not judgment. Also, he doesn't continually divide and judge them in several ways, he just uses the MBTI divisions as a standard system, and sticks to it. He only typed them this towards this category based on his assessment of them. The divisions he was talking about were arbitrary facts that a person can't help. Judging a person based on their behavior is not an arbitrary measure of them. That's the difference, wouldn't you agree?

Damn it why couldn't I have thought of/ said that?!!!

Thanks Athenian.

Wish Dom were here, a perfect example of why I love NF thinking. (He always thought I thought it was some kind of lesser thing to NT thinking.)

[proteanmix]

Originally Posted by athenian200

I agree he's generalizing, but I don't think he's attacking them. Also, he doesn't continually divide and judge them in several ways, he just uses the MBTI divisions as a standard system, and sticks to it. He only typed them this towards this category based on his assessment of them. The divisions he was talking about were arbitrary facts that person can't help. Judging a person based on their behavior is not an arbitrary measure of them. That's the difference, wouldn't you agree?

I agree with you and I wasn't trying to have an emotional response to the topic.

If I want to learn how to deal with another type I'd make my query in a more neutral tone. I wouldn't begin with their list of faults, or I'd at least try to balance out the positives and negatives so I wouldn't prime people for certain types of responses. I don't see how if we're going to collect wisdom on how to deal with ESTJs that that's the best way to get it done. How is an ESTJ who reads that supposed to respond? You're setting that person up for automatic (at least in my mind) uphill battle. First they'd have to prove that what is said isn't true and then go about presenting a more accurate representation of themselves. ESTJs that fall outside of the model already set up from the OP are on the edges of "typical" ESTJ behavior.

I understand what Xander's getting at when he made the OP, I just personally think that it could have been phrased in more neutral terms in order to get more balanced responses.

[proteanmix]

Originally Posted by Xander

I'm sorry if my manner offends you but I am trying to be clear and transparent. If I try to compensate for my experiences not being 100% then I will move further and further away from what is my experience.

INTP here, truth is very important. Still I apologize if this approach causes you upset.

In part yes. However my aim is not to attack and bring down but to analyse and learn. If I learn that my current understanding is wrong then fine, bring on the insight.

It's no problem and I'm not upset.

I'm after the truth as much as any INTP so I can understand that.

[Athenian200]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

If I want to learn how to deal with another type I'd make my query in a more neutral tone. I wouldn't begin with their list of faults, or I'd at least try to balance out the positives and negatives so I wouldn't prime people for certain types of responses. I don't see how if we're going to collect wisdom on how to deal with ESTJs that that's the best way to get it done. How is an ESTJ who reads that supposed to respond? You're setting that person up for automatic (at least in my mind) uphill battle. First they'd have to prove that what is said isn't true and then go about presenting a more accurate representation of themselves. ESTJs that fall outside of the model already set up from the OP are on the edges of "typical" ESTJ behavior.

I understand what Xander's getting at when he made the OP, I just personally think that it could have been phrased in more neutral terms in order to get more balanced responses.

I understand and agree with that, it just originally looked like you were accusing him of something, but you've cleared that up now. In fact, I think I'll post some positive things about them here:

If I want something done exactly the way I want it done, by someone who understands the process, I know I can count on an ESTJ to get it done, and get it done right. Other types often just skim over my instructions or delegate responsibility, but not ESTJ. They learn it slowly, but they know it better. And if something goes wrong and wasn't provided for precisely in my instructions, I know that they'll make a reasonable effort to contact me, and that if they can't, they'll probably understand my process well enough to choose the best course of action. Most importantly, they'll take full responsibility for whatever I assign to them, and not try to pass blame off on the other members of the group. They are also good at taking the initiative to solve problems before they arise.

[Andy K Octopus]

I know that an ESTJ is typically potrayed as a cartoonish bully, but I strongly believe my boss is an ESTJ (he is always too busy to take a test though). He is very authoritative and difficult at times, but he gets the job done and he can be the nicest person ever.

While my NF sensibilities are sometimes put off by his ways (I can't comprehend what makes him tick), he can be a very nice person who works harder than ANYONE I have ever seen (not only does he multitask like nothing I have ever witnessed, he takes work home, comes in on weekends---whatever it takes to make sure the job is done right), and goes out of his way to make sure his employees are treated well. For example, when we have done extra hard work preparing things for him, or we take in a lot of extra money, he makes sure we get a bonus check. Sometimes he buys everyone lunch to show appreciation.

I am just saying, while the ESTJ description fits him, it is not nessecarily a bad thing. He treats people very well, and he works harder than I can imagine. The thing is, he has the best work ethic you could imagine ( while I find it difficult to work really hard for something I have no interest in or doesn't excite me, or doesn't advance a good cause. I can work like a maniac when my passions are aroused, but he will do any job he is tasked with, no matter what it is, and do it to the best of his ability). If his job was shoveling horse manure for minimum wage, he would still do it all day without complaining. That is just how he is.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

I understand what Xander's getting at when he made the OP, I just personally think that it could have been phrased in more neutral terms in order to get more balanced responses.

Oh ideally yes. It's just people get confused when I balance stuff out. I always get asked "so what are you trying to say here?". Hence I gave up. The OP is almost a brain dump and hence unadulterated and without niceties.

Aside from that do you think that when talking about how to get along with a certain type that it helps to have that type present or do you think that it would just be read as an attack and they'd spend most of their time defending?

I'd certainly like the input and granted it may seem like I have a downer on ESTJs but I really don't expect that any would have the time for a forum never mind an analysis of their respective strengths and weaknesses.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by proteanmix

It's no problem and I'm not upset.

I'm after the truth as much as any INTP so I can understand that.

Cool. Glad to hear that. Seriously.

(Why I always think that comes across as insincere I don't know but I'm just trying to be clear. Glad we're on the same kinda track even considering the differences.)