INXJ closed-minded certitude

[Economica]

Twice now I have posted the following regarding what I find is the most common, vexing and self-destructive problem area for INTJs (and possibly INFJs?), namely closed-minded certitude:

We INTJs base a lot of our self-esteem on being insightful and decisive, but we are not always right - and that's okay. Making errors (of fact and of judgment) is forgivable. (People don't mind that we are not perfectly oracular. Really! ) Refusing to recognize and own up to our errors, however, costs us serious points. And it's idiotic, really, given that we aren't fooling anyone, just alienating them. Some strategists!

The single follow-up I have gotten is from an INTJ who wrote:

Oh, and Economica - speak for yourself. I'm always right.

So I figure it's time for a poll. I'm making it multiple so that non-INXJs can vote on their experience with both types.

[ptgatsby]

Originally Posted by Economica

So I figure it's time for a poll. I'm making it multiple so that non-INXJs can vote on their experience with both types.

When teaching my GF about MBTI, and about her INTJ personality, I explained it like this:

INTJs are always right. It's not that they are "objectively" right, it's that, right of this moment, they are right. If it turns out that they were wrong about something, they change it... and of course, that means they are right again. Since the change is instant, they are never wrong... always right, always certain.

The one exception is when they don't know how to act. In cases like this they tend to become very flustered. They will leap onto some mode of acting that isn't natural - could be emotional, like dating, or it could be outside their expertise (they know what they know, which is everything they know - same concept) and be forced to make a decision/act without being comfortable with it... in those cases, they don't have their confidence. And then they aren't quite as "right".

But otherwise? Always right. Always.

(edit: I said that I find all INTJs suffer from this because... every INTJ I have known has... but that's only a handful, so yah. However, it is so pronounced in all of them, I think it is fairly common. I also find it with ENTJs and with xSTJs, although there is a difference in terms of confidence. I've seen ESTJs reading the procedure bible while the house is burning down, so to speak... and convincing an ISTJ that something they hold onto is wrong is even harder than with INTJs.)

[Economica]

Originally Posted by ptgatsby

I also find it with ENTJs and with xSTJs, although there is a difference in terms of confidence. I've seen ESTJs reading the procedure bible while the house is burning down, so to speak... and convincing an ISTJ that something they hold onto is wrong is even harder than with INTJs.)

Yeah, I know other types suffer from closed-minded certitude too. However, when it's run by Ni it really seems to cause the most damage for all involved.

Also, my interest is in improving quality of discussion on this board and we don't have a lot of Si havoc-wreaking here... <insert joke about Sona>

[Athenian200]

It's hard to say, really. I've occasionally been closed-minded, but I've never been really been free of doubt. And if I see a good reason that I might have been mistaken, I'll try to reexamine my views. Although sometimes it can hard to dispel a view that I've held for a long time.

I'm an INFJ.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by ptgatsby

...I also find it with ENTJs and with xSTJs, although there is a difference in terms of confidence. I've seen ESTJs reading the procedure bible while the house is burning down, so to speak... and convincing an ISTJ that something they hold onto is wrong is even harder than with INTJs.)

Word.

Originally Posted by Economica

Also, my interest is in improving quality of discussion on this board and we don't have a lot of Si havoc-wreaking here... <insert joke about Sona>

And don't forget all those closet ESTJs either!

[Uberfuhrer]

I don't know if I'm exactly closed-minded or just stubborn. I'm very weary of trying new things and get anxiety when I leave my habits. I also get convinced of my own conceptions. I withdraw when I get into an argument over difference of opinion, saying I don't want to fight anymore, but that doesn't mean I changed my views.

[Natrushka]

Originally Posted by ptgatsby

But otherwise? Always right. Always.

No wonder she loves you!

and convincing an ISTJ that something they hold onto is wrong is even harder than with INTJs.

Amen.

[cafe]

When I was younger I used to care more about proving I was right. Now, it isn't as much of a big deal.

I am pretty sure I do this:

Originally Posted by ptgatsby

INTJs are always right. It's not that they are "objectively" right, it's that, right of this moment, they are right. If it turns out that they were wrong about something, they change it... and of course, that means they are right again. Since the change is instant, they are never wrong... always right, always certain.

Maybe not to the INTJ extreme, I don't know. The weird thing is that I never know when a change in my thinking is going to happen or even how it happens. Sometimes I can see it coming, but it's not a conscious thing. It's like a switch in my head flips while I'm not looking and the next time I'm thinking about it, I've totally changed my mind and am just as certain about the new opinion as I was about the old.

Other times it's very conscious, but it's more a result of an epiphany and those are usually unanticipated.

I am confusing even to me.

I haven't really suffered much for it, though, that I can think of, though I may have inflicted suffering on others.

Edit: For the poll, I probably suffer from it but I am not working to overcome it. I think awareness of it is about the best I can do with this thing. It's too innate and hard-wired in. I didn't see that option.

[Langrenus]

Originally Posted by Economica

Twice now I have posted the following regarding what I find is the most common, vexing and self-destructive problem area for INTJs (and possibly INFJs?), namely closed-minded certitude:



The single follow-up I have gotten is from an INTJ who wrote:





So I figure it's time for a poll. I'm making it multiple so that non-INXJs can vote on their experience with both types.

Protest! Where's the "I am an INTJ and I believe that I suffer from it, and I intend to carry on pretending to be ignorant to the issue" option?

On a more serious note, I think you've identified an inherent weakness, but calling it closed-minded certitude is unfair - and I'm always right, so there. As pt points out, we can actually be very flexible in light of new information. I am a master of making assertions and then quietly moulding them as people present new (read contradictory) information, until by the end of the argument they never know where we started and have agreed with the conclusion I've reached. Clearly this works better in person than on a message board, which is probably why I self-censor so much here and withdraw from making posts; it's not pleasant to have people present quotes halfway through a discussion, since I feel compelled to defend them even if I was wrong (how this will come back to haunt me...)

I read somewhere that INTJ's have a deep-seated desire to demonstrate competence in everything they do, and this certainly rings true for me. Thus I'm not closed-minded...I'll just argue until I'm blue in the face to prove that I'm correct (and so 'competent') in the area being discussed. Fortunately most people are too lazy to challenge after a while, but it can be an incredibly dangerous aspect of our personalities.

Thanks for trying to improve the quality of content here. Oh, and don't quote me - it means I can't lie in the poll

[ptgatsby]

Originally Posted by Natrushka

No wonder she loves you!

Oh, I've tempered you, haven't I dear? (I'm sure she'll have something to say on this )

Best way to crush the INTJ's problem? Make them keep track of how often they are wrong. Statistics > INTJ worldview.



But to me... and to keep it in perspective... it's the counterpart to the INTP "unwilling to act" routine. Sometimes it's good to have someone to balance you, but in general, the J ends up ahead... simply because acting is better than not. Regardless, balance is the keyword here.

Back on the ESTJ thing - see, if an ESTJ can't find the answer in the procedure book, they'll read it again. And again. The answer must be there. And if it isn't, then they'll look to authority to resolve it. The INTJ, however, will make up their own solution. That is what makes it dangerous. They do not have be bound by a ruleset. The healthy INTJ will be confident and ever changing, making the best choices possible and acting on them as needed. The unhealthy INTJ will be confident but will change only to avoid being wrong - not to be right. The objective in the first is to solve in accordance with reality; the other is to protect their ego (read: their built up structured data).